Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we definitely have to keep on after the federal government since we don't have the resource revenue sharing with them yet. It is forthcoming. Once we have that, then we have most of the power in the North as our jurisdiction. At the same time, Mr. Chair, I am quite impressed with the department's initiative to have a police presence in the community of Gameti. Last year was a very successful winter road monitoring operation. Now that the Gameti winter road is open, has the same approach been made as soon as it opened up? There is a lot of traffic going back and forth now. I am certainly hoping that they are out there now, because the road just opened last week during the duration of the winter road project. That would eventually lead to a Gameti police detachment. Do we have crews out there now as we did last year? Mahsi.

Mahsi, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, that is the case. The RCMP has made the commitment to continue the pilot project in Gameti for this winter road season. The apparent need last year, I have to admit from talking to the RCMP that they were surprised for the amount of pressure and amount of need. They had anticipated initially that a couple of officers could handle it. We needed more than that. The support had to come from Yellowknife. I think that underscores the point that some of the Members are making about the larger centre complements having to resource our smaller communities. That has been the case there but we have made the compelling argument that we need a full-time police presence. So this pilot road project is good. It has been very successful. It is a temporary solution. I hope that by next fall we have a permanent presence on the ground in Gameti. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We are on page 7-19, activity summary, law enforcement, operations expenditure summary. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. On the RCMP staffing and the distribution of it, I would like to hear from the Minister as to what kind of challenge we are facing. I want to be constructive on this. I don't think this is one that we are talking about a big community versus small communities. We understand that there are always limited resources, not just in dollars, but bodies too. I understand that RCMP contingency nationally is under pressure. They can't get all the money they need to have as many RCMP as possible, but even if they did, we have to find the bodies and train them. With the employment opportunities available everywhere, those are different challenges as well.

As the Minister mentioned earlier, there has been an increase in the RCMP force. I think the numbers are 26 or 27 in the last three years. We have succeeded in placing a detachment in Sachs, but I don't know if it is the never-ending upward trend in the crime rates in Yellowknife or downtown situation. We are hearing more and more from Yellowknifers, especially downtown, that we need more resources there. We just need more resources there. We have youth and, in some cases, gangs doing some serious criminal work in the downtown area. Not only that, in suburbia too. This is why communities are willing to step up to the plate and they have set up their own community network to assist the RCMP. It is really frustrating to be sitting in this chair and see the numbers going up and putting more resources, but then we are not seeing the boots on the ground, so to speak.

There has been mention about the Gameti situation. I really would like to see a full-time detachment in Gameti because, right now, the Yellowknife force is staffing that and that takes a lot of resources outside of Yellowknife. The RCMP detachment in Yellowknife is very stretched because of that.

Another thing I want to talk to the Minister about, and I would like the Minister's feedback on, is what kind of work has been done between the GNWT as a funding partner, the federal government and the RCMP as to what kind of steps we could take to free the non-boots on the ground kind of work? Is there any lessening of paperwork we could do? Is there some work that RCMP is doing that they probably don't have to do if it was not required by law to do? For example, I understand the correctional officers now have taken over escorting of people that need to show up in court from correctional facilities. I saw a correctional officer escorting somebody to Hay River. That freed up a whole lot of time for RCMP. I understand the RCMP is engaged in lots of paperwork in organizing travel schedules for people who had to show up in court. I heard that from a very reliable source. Is that the kind of work that we could do? Is there anything we could do as a civil or public government to free the RCMP time so that all the RCMP we have can be on the ground doing the police work? When was the last time that sort of review was done? Maybe I should get the Minister to explain all the questions I posed, and then I can go from there.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There were a number of questions there. I hope the Member will forgive me if I don't get to them all and then we can come back to this. The point that the Member has made about corrections officers taking over the escort work from the jail to the courts, that was a deal that we made with the RCMP to alleviate some of the administrative pressure. That falls into that category in our minds. We were able to do that. There is no doubt that there is probably more of that that we can do. There is a civilian support staff located in Yellowknife for the RCMP. They are about 23 people in that complement. They do much of this work on behalf of the RCMP.

In addition, the question earlier, I think the Member posed it in her statement. I just want to let Members know that, of the roughly 228 RCMP positions we have, about 110 of those are Yellowknife based. That gives you a sense of the breakdown. There is no doubt in the larger communities, it is not just Yellowknife, it is Inuvik, Hay River, the requirement is put on those detachments to serve some of the outlying regions. We have just made the move to have more of a regional model in the Tlicho so that, out of Behchoko, the support is provided to the

Dogrib communities. In the past, it has been Yellowknife, but this is something that the RCMP has agreed to address in keeping with the self-government. I think that is a positive, progressive step on behalf of the RCMP. They have approached a number of issues in that respect. I have been very pleased with their efforts to improve policing. Are there more things that we can do, more discussions we can have related to reducing the administrative burden? Yes. I think the Member earlier today in the House talked about one of the things, in my mind, that alleviate a lot of pressure. That is dealing with the people who really need supports from government, from NGOs, people who end up in the drunk tank overnight because there is nowhere else to go. I think much of that can be handled by our support network if we put the pieces in place. We talk about the Anchorage model that would free up a lot of RCMP time. We are also looking at some other tools. Obviously the SCAN legislation we hope will crack down on some crime across the North and free up the RCMP as well, Mr. Chair. So there are a number of initiatives. I agree; it is important to continue to have ongoing dialogue with the RCMP and ask where we can be of assistance because we have to make sure the RCMP are used in the most effective way. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Out of 228 police officers and 110 being in Yellowknife, on the first look there, that might look like not quite half of the staff is in Yellowknife, but that is actually misleading. I think the stats have to be on where the crimes are committed. I would like to get information from the Minister. My understanding is that 60 to 70 percent of serious crimes are being committed in Yellowknife. It is not the bodies thing. We have to go where the crimes are being committed. I would like to get information from the Minister on that.

Secondly, more specifically, my information is that the RCMP is currently in charge of organizing all of the travel for witnesses. Is that the best use of RCMP time? We have court administration. We have court staff. Is that something that the GNWT staff could look into so that RCMP in uniform is not sitting in its offices trying to book? I understand they do the booking and it is the court administration office that rubberstamps them. I think that is the kind of area. That is just one example. But I am thinking there might be a lot of other areas where, if we cannot put any more bodies in, the next thing we can do is free up RCMP time so that they could have their boots on the ground.

Thirdly, I would support there being an RCMP regional operation in the Tlicho area based out of Behchoko and serving Whati, Gameti and Wekweeti. That is fine, but that does not answer my question. That is a separate issue. In fact, that would be very good as long as we get to keep Yellowknife detachment to do their work. I am telling you, if Tlicho gets their base and they could operate out of Behchoko and serve their communities, that is great. Right now, Yellowknife detachment numbers are misleading because they are servicing all those communities. That takes them out of service for extended times. I would like to ask the Minister if he could make a commitment to review with the police and with whoever is in the know, review their workload and what are the areas that we could assist with RCMP freeing up their time so that we could maximize their presence in our communities to address the ever-increasing crime situation in the Yellowknife area with the influx of all the thousands of trucks that are coming in, the influx of people. I understand there are serious criminal gangs that are trying to move into Yellowknife to fill the gaps put on by the gaps that had been created by the operation drug bust that we had. Whenever there is a vacancy created in criminal reign, there will be somebody else coming in to fill that. I think it is important that we maximize the RCMP time. So there are two specific comments and questions that I asked that I would appreciate an answer to. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chair, the question of the organizing and planning of travel arrangements for all civilian witnesses, yes, the RCMP detachment does that on behalf of Yellowknife witnesses but the travel outside of Yellowknife is handled by the local detachment. It is my understanding from the RCMP, maybe the Member has different information, but I would agree that, if you compare the city of Yellowknife to other similar sized cities, Whitehorse, others, the complement numbers are lower than other comparatively sized cities. That is an argument that I made to the federal Minister. Take into account the additional requirement to serve outlying regions and communities. Gameti was a perfect example. Last year, during the winter road season, at times there were up to five officers there in a weekend. That takes five officers off the ground in Yellowknife and that is a concern. That is why the Gameti detachment will not only be good for the people who have been long waiting a permanent police presence there and, in my mind, have a right to that and deserve that, but it will also help Yellowknife citizens because those officers will be back on the ground in Yellowknife.

I know that, anecdotally, we understand that the crime and the nature of crimes is hardening. We see that every day in Yellowknife in the downtown, but I do want to point to some of the progress that I think the Yellowknife detachment has made in reducing crimes. If we look at the statistics I have from the RCMP comparing 2004 to 2006, in 2004, there were 847 assaults. That is down to 433 in 2006. We look at sex assaults for 2004 to 2006, from 49 to 39. Break and enters in 2004 from 343 down to 166 in 2006. There is a long way to go. It is going to take the entire community coming together with the police, all the other tools we can bring to bear on finding a comprehensive solution, but I think the men and women of the RCMP, the volunteers who are involved, are having a major impact on crime in this community. Admittedly, there is still some way to go, for sure, but I think there are good things happening. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to need more of a breakdown of the 110 that the Minister has given. He mentioned earlier that there are 228 full-time RCMP officers and that 110 of them are based in Yellowknife. The information I have is that, in fact, there is no more than 42 full-time RCMP officers in Yellowknife. That is 25 percent of the full contingent. In fact, many of them are volunteer RCMP officers. The RCMP officers not only work full time, but they volunteer their services at

schools and in communities. They are doing more than their share. I don't really need platitudes or saying we are doing the best we can because, I am telling you, on the ground, we have serious issues in our community. I have lived here for 29 years now. In the entire seven years I have been here as an MLA, the crime situation in town is getting worse and worse. The attitude of people who are committing crimes is getting very strange. They think nothing of attacking and assaulting somebody in broad daylight in a crowd. So you can't go by numbers like these numbers are going down or that number is going down. It is also the quality or the intensity of the crimes is an issue too. I have to tell you that outlying communities of Yellowknife need police officers too. If they don't have people based there, of course the Yellowknife detachment has to come in and help them. That should not be considered. That service, those hours and the times that the Yellowknife detachment has to serve the outlying communities should not be included as Yellowknife contingency. That is not fair for Yellowknife for the Minister to say that we have half of the bodies in Yellowknife. I tell you, a couple of weekends ago, there were only two RCMP officers that were on the ground in the whole city because everybody was in court or in communities or they were in offices making travel arrangements. I don't know. So I need the Minister to take it very seriously. I give him credit for doing what he can to meet the needs of small communities. I don't want to take anything away from that, but we have very serious criminal activities happening in Yellowknife. We can't continue to say that we are doing the best we can and we are just going to let it take its course. I think the community citizens are taking steps to do what they can. The Community Patrol Services, when that comes into effect, it's going to free up the RCMP's time. That's a really good thing that the RCMP don't have to be picking up people who are intoxicated and then you have to process them and put them in whatever cell. That's a lot of time spent by the RCMP on a repeated customer basis. To take away way from the RCMP's time, that's a great thing. But where is the assistance on the part of the government to help these people? Everything is done on a voluntary basis. Why do we not do more to help the community resources that are doing the job to free the RCMP's time so that we can maximize the use of RCMP time?

The $100,000, that's not going to RCMP service, it should be going into communities so that community people can have half-decent vehicles and resources to help the RCMP in that way. I would like to ask the committee to give a better breakdown of exactly how much resources in the RCMP staffing is going into Yellowknife. How does it compare to crime rates? I want to know the crime rates. How much crime is being committed in Yellowknife versus others and how does that relate to the bodies? I want to know if the Minister would make a commitment to do a study on what work the RCMP does that can be freed so the RCMP can do the RCMP work they are trained to do and they are most qualified to do. Could I have that report to the standing committee whenever he can do it at his earliest convenience? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, there are a number of dynamics at play here. We try to analyze crime rates. One of the things we know is that in communities without detachments, quite often crime goes unreported. Community members feel what's the use. We know that a response is some hours away. We will find a solution here locally, so that doesn't get counted in the official crime statistics.

Another thing we know, Mr. Chairman, is that in some communities where you might be able to warrant one officer, we can no longer have one-officer detachments. We must have a minimum of two-officer detachments, Mr. Chairman. The Canada Labour Code requires us to do that.

The next thing I would say is there is a critical mass of support in Yellowknife that allows for economies of scale. That just comes from having a bigger complement. I will certainly provide the breakdown to Members, but if I read what the Member is saying, asking me to remove federal policing positions which are located in Yellowknife, asking me to remove administrative positions which are non-uniform police. I can do that and I can tell you that the actual number of people in uniform based in Yellowknife, that includes both Yellowknife detachment and "G" division, is around 64 people...

Can we just take a break?

---SHORT RECESS

Good afternoon. I call Committee of the Whole back to order after a short break. I would like to recognize Ms. Lee again. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before the break...I think I am going to go with the way of asking the Minister for clarification, because my question was pretty straightforward. I would like to ask the Minister to exercise less flexibility in his answers here. I had a pretty simple question. I wanted to know exactly how many boots were on the ground in Yellowknife out of 220. The information I have is there are 43 full-time RCMP officers on the ground. In fact, there are about 36 bodies and about 12 or...I believe there are 32 bodies in Yellowknife of RCMP officers who do patrol work, boots on the ground; however technical that is. There are 16 extra positions that are volunteers. That's volunteer work they do. Altogether there are 48.

Now the Minister tells me there are 110 out of 200 RCMP officers in Yellowknife. So obviously there is a discrepancy and I wanted the Minister to explain that. The point I had a problem with was the Minister was suggesting if a Member wants to take this out and that out, and that's not what I meant at all. We should be more careful about how we present our information. I appreciate the Minister's clarification.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I will do that. In the interest of clarity, I won't talk about boots because I would have to double my number by two, I will just talk about people...

---Laughter

...and I know the Member wasn't suggesting that we remove positions. I was simply trying to reconcile the information I had given her before to be very clear. There

are federal policing positions involved in, say, drug work. We won't talk about that. The number I think the Member is looking for is in the Yellowknife detachment there are, and I will run the accounting, 37 full-time paid police officers. In addition, somebody is responsible for traffic work; there is the dog unit; there are two relief unit members. That comes to 41 RCMP officers in Yellowknife.

In addition, Yellowknife-based G division headquarters, there are 27 members who also have responsibility territorially, but they fill in and support in Yellowknife as well. So Yellowknife-based we're talking about 68 RCMP members of a total throughout the territory of 166. The larger number, the 220, involves other things, as I've just indicated, including admin support, just to be very clear. So I think I've given the number that the Member is looking for. But we can provide that, an accounting of this in writing which will also, in addition, show the administrative support and show federal positions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. I think we're having a good debate here. I wanted to get the Minister information and so we're just having a back and forth and I just don't... Anyway, let's leave it at that.

I want to ask the second question about whether or not the Minister will commit to...Okay, getting back to focus here. That still shows that it is still less than, we don't, we have half of the population in Yellowknife and we don't have anywhere near half of the RCMP officers here. I know when you're looking at numbers like 68 or 42, I mean that seems a lot. I understand that, especially when in smaller communities you don't have RCMP in some places and I support the RCMP officers going into that too. But the fact is, a lot of these RCMP are stretched out helping in areas outside of Yellowknife as well and it would be to the benefit of all of us if we could have RCMP in smaller communities so that Yellowknife detachment could concentrate on Yellowknife work, which they have enough of.

Now, I have not had, I don't think, an answer from the Minister on whether or not he would be willing to commit to doing a review of what area of RCMP work that they're doing now that would allow them to spend more time on the ground. I think that's something that we can do to, whether government could put extra resources in or if the court administration or the Department of Justice could take on some of the work or other departments in the government. I think that it would be a good thing to do a study. Work with the RCMP, I don't know if they're federal, I guess the RCMP are federal police that report to the GNWT on a cost sharing way. I mean there are people better equipped and more knowledgeable than we are about how they could streamline their work so that we could maximize the time and resources of the RCMP where they are needed the most. So could the Minister make a commitment to do that study and get back to us? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the Member. It's in all of our interest to see additional police resources throughout the Northwest Territories. Yes, Yellowknife is particularly stressed, especially when it compares to other cities of its size. You'll get no argument from me there. We are sitting down with the RCMP to talk about some of the non-police work functions that the RCMP have to carry out. It's this kind of work and this kind of discussion which led to the agreement between ourselves and the RCMP to have corrections officers doing escort work. There are a number of other initiatives that we think can be undertaken to free up RCMP officers to do more police related work, Mr. Chairman. So that discussion is underway. I'll commit to seeing that through. We'll also sit down with Inspector Fortin and seek to better understand some of the pressures the Yellowknife detachment specifically is under within the RCMP, because I think some of this concern came I believe probably from a briefing where Members were informed of the nature of the police work that's going on in Yellowknife and I agree that we need to do a job of sitting down to understand what their challenges are and working with them to help alleviate some of that. So I'll commit to doing that. Thank you.