Of the $12 million, approximately $6 million is billing to Nunavut. We have been working with Nunavut to try to come up with a satisfactory arrangement. For that detail I’ll get Ms. LeClair to give some more information.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Ms. LeClair.

Thanks for those comments. So we don’t know…. We may still be accruing additional debt here. It sounds like we’re working on the process, though, that’s causing that debt to accumulate. Is that correct?

Not getting into detailed information that would relate to individuals — that’s best for another discussion we could have — there is some debt still accruing with the arrangement we have right now with Nunavut. As Ms.

LeClair

pointed out, we are working to clarify that and get that rectified.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Moving along to Mr. Krutko.

My question is in regard to the Beaufort-Delta Health and Social Services Authority at $4.3 million. I’d just like to ask the Minister if he can give me a breakdown of the $4.3 million. Exactly what’s the deficit for?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister Roland.

Mr. Chairman, $2 million of that debt is in receivables. For the other information I’d have to go to the Minister responsible for Health and Social Services.

The information I have is that it is an accumulated deficit over three years. That would take into consideration all the receivables and payroll, but it’s an accumulated deficit over three years since ’05–06, ’06–07 and ’07–08.

We don’t have that level of detail on exactly what’s causing the shortfall there.

The breakdown…. Because it’s over a number of years and because we fund Health and Social Services authorities by block funding, we do have certain areas that money is allocated to, but there’s flexibility within that.

Part of it could be the different years. They may have had increased use of locum doctors or agency nurses or utilities costs going up. That’s one of the reasons FMBS has become involved in looking at a zero-based review and exactly how the money’s being spent on a day-to-day basis, coming forward with a plan and working with the Department of Health and Social Services on how we can rectify this so we don’t end up in this situation again.

One of the concerns I have — especially representing small communities — is that we seem to have seen a real decline in services in our communities in health and social services in regard to vacancies; lack of programs being delivered by mental health, alcohol and drug workers; doctor visits; dental care.

I’m wondering if one of the reasons we’re seeing fewer services is because of the deficit situation at the Inuvik health board, which is affecting the ability of the board to deliver the essential services to our communities. Where we’re seeing a decline in those services, I’m wondering if there’s a correlation between those.

Also, I’d like to know exactly when the last time was that the Beaufort-Delta health authority had a surplus.

It fluctuated between years. It started as early as 1998–1999. There were a couple of years there that it did come out: 2001–02 was the year they had a small surplus; in 2002–03 they had another small surplus; and in 2003–04 they started going back into a deficit position. I believe the last time they had a positive entry was 2004–05.

I was saying, Mr.

Chairman, the fact that the

department has been working with authorities and trying to get them to live within their means…. But the simple fact that they had been spending more than they had been bringing in is an example of everything the Member’s raised; for example, further increasing the costs of delivery across the Territories in a number of these authorities. It is something we’re going to have to get a grip on and make the necessary changes to start living within the budgeted amounts that are provided.

Mr. Chair, I think that if any review is going to take place, we also have to do a review in regard to looking at the services that are being provided through this funding, because every community — when you look at the tracking system we have in government — has earmarked a dollar amount for health and social services if you look at GNWT tracking. Every community says if we have this money, why is it not being spent or why aren’t those positions filled in our communities? Someone else is spending that money on our behalf.

I think that if you are going to do any review, you’ll have to also look at the service side of the review, ensuring that the fundamental programs and services are being delivered — and if they’re not delivered, why not? For myself, I’d just like that question answered. When communities know there’s a set amount for health and social services, education, policing, municipal services and whatnot budgeted by community through government tracking, and that money is not being expended in a community, then the question is: where is it being expended? If you are doing a review, is that something that’s also going to be looked at?

Mr. Chairman, geographic tracking processes are done by the department and the FMBS as well. That breakdown is territorial, regional, community; looking at service delivery, looking at all departments. As Members are aware, although it’s broken down, some of the pots of funding are held either in headquarters, even if it’s for regional dollars, or in the regional centres if it’s broken down for community dollars, depending on how it’s set up. If it’s application based…. If, for example, the jobs are put out but no one is applying, or the qualifications of those applying for jobs don’t meet the standards set out, there are a number of factors that come in to that. I believe we are about to release, if we have not just released…. We are looking at 2005–06 numbers as our latest to be able to put out there for Members and the public as well.

I’d like to ask the Minister of Finance: is there going to be some sort of a caretaker in place to look at the Inuvik Health Board review similar to what happened here in Stanton, where you basically point at someone to do the review independent of the CEO or the board, so you can get to the bottom of exactly why it is that we are continuing to run these deficits year after year?

People are running in deficit situations. Like I say, for me, we raise issues in this House time and time again in regard to health care services positions that we assume should have been in a community’s mental health positions or alcohol and drug positions. Yet when we are dealing with a doctor, if you see him once a month, now it’s coming down to seem like twice a month. Dental care is down the road a couple of months. Those services are affecting the health and well-being of people in communities, yet we seem to be focusing a lot of attention on these large regional centres and Stanton.

I’m wondering exactly what type of assurance I can get from the Minister that there will be accountability and that whatever review takes place it will get to the bottom of exactly why we’re running into this situation year after year after year.

Mr. Chairman, the fact that the authorities have been running deficits for a number of years is a concern. That is why the FMBS has become involved, both on the collection side and doing the zero-based review process. The model we put together with Stanton Territorial Health Authority is the model we will be using, or a very similar model, for all other authorities that run into this area.

We know the Beaufort-Delta Health and Social Services Authority is the next authority that will undergo this review. Previously, the Department of Health and Social Services had sent someone in from outside that organization to look at its work in the financial area and pull the information together and try to help out. Yes, this next phase the Minister of Health and Social Services is undertaking is looking at the actual delivery and areas of delivery and looking at where we can then go with levels of service in the communities and across the territory.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask for the third time — it’s not the financial Minister; it’s the Minister of Health. It’s the third time I’ve asked the question, and I’d like a straight answer on how many unfunded programs there are at Stanton, how many unfunded positions there are. She guessed 27, but I’d like to know the exact number. I’d also like to know under what authority were the unfunded programs and positions approved and who approved it.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, the department has begun this review, a zero-based review, looking at program spending to determine in what areas the spending is occurring, whether it is authorized in the sense of mandated programs or has there been a growth in program delivery in areas we would call expansion of the service delivery, though it may not be directly tied to a mandate. That expectation has come in.

I’ll give you an example, Mr.

Chairman. The

department, when they initially looked at the area of services provided to people in the Northwest Territories — this is a number of years ago — found that through the help of companies and individuals, the Stanton Foundation helped Stanton purchase some equipment to put in service for the people of the Northwest Territories.

I’ll use the CAT scan as an example, a vital service that’s helped a lot of people. Stanton was never set up initially to deliver that, so we’ve had to, over the

years, begin adding to that. They found after the first year of operation they had to double up their teams because the service was used at a higher rate than was anticipated or budgeted for. It’s examples like that we will find come to the surface. It comes to delivery.

Now, who would say that we should stop that level of service? I don’t think anybody in the North would agree with that. In fact, as we heard from a Member already, we should be enhancing some of our service delivery, whether it’s territorial, regional or community. There’s a need for a level of service across the Northwest Territories.

For the specific response, I don’t know whether the Minister would have all of that, right down to who authorized it, and I don’t think we want to get to that level of debate in this Assembly, at least in this forum. But for the information about unfunded positions and the unfunded programs I’ll go to the Minister of Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Minister Lee.