Mr. Chair, the Member raises a very good issue. It’s a real issue that we need to face right now. Our strategy has been to try to convince the federal government that they need to change their position. We’re working at the FPT table. We’ve joined forces with other jurisdictions and we’re hoping that we’re going to be successful on that front. Mr. Chairman, the reality is if we’re not successful, we’re really going to have to rethink how we do business in the social housing area. Will we be able to convert capital? I’m not sure that’s the solution. Raising rents? We are already hearing the rents are too high. The other option is, of course, to reduce our public housing stock. It’s a really tough situation that we’re in and we’re hoping that we’re going to make a convincing argument to the federal government that will allow us to continue on with social housing.

For the record, I feel the best strategy is to fix the public housing units and give them away in non-market communities and sell them in market communities, by the way. I think that is a good thing. But the best solution, of course, is to get the federal government to remain in the process of continuing to fund social housing. Just a comment. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. We’re on page 5-53, debt repayment, which is an information item, operations expenditure summary. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know that this is probably more of an FMB question but I’m just curious from the Housing point of view, from the Housing Minister. The debt in the department of Housing is carried on the territorial overall debt, or debt wall. I’m just wondering what work, if any work, is done from the Housing Corporation point of view to see if that debt will come off our debt wall as reportable debt that the territorial government carries. As I understand it, it’s money that’s being funded directly from Canada to pay for that. To me, it’s an in and out and I’ve often wondered why we have to carry it on our debt wall. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.

Mr. Chairman, I think as this is my second go-round as Housing Corporation Minister and I have raised it every year with the finance people of our government. The response is that we are legally obligated to recognize it in our books as a debt and we don’t have a lot of room to change that.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Has the Finance Minister changed since that original question came forward and how much work has been done from a legal/accounting perspective to see if that is actually accurate? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I am not sure how many Finance Ministers were asked the same question, and it has been reviewed very recently and the response has not changed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Specific to debt repayment of course, what is the actual outstanding debt that Canada is picking up for us in total? As I understand it, I think it is in the range of $80 million dollars, but I will let the Minister say it for the record, the actual debt amount. I see what we are doing as a repayment this year, but that money is funded through Canada. So if the Minister could put it on the record, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Anderson.

Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the detail. Has the department ever sought a secondary accounting position to find out if we should be carrying that liability directly on our books? Because it is being paid separately by another agency, such as the federal government. I mean, it would seem obvious to me that we shouldn’t have to wear that liability if it is being fully funded. It was created by someone else and it is being paid off by someone else. It just seems odd that, with all due respect, our Housing Minister is just taking what our Finance Minister is saying is the truth and that is how we are proceeding. No one is sort of looking at it from a different perspective, because I don’t believe that it is appropriate that it is carried on our debt in this manner. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, that has been looked at in various manners including with the Auditor General, so we totally agree that the finance recommendation is correct.

My apologies to belabour the point. What was the position that the Auditor General had, and did they have correspondence to that effect and, if so, would the Minister be able to forward on a copy of that on to my office? Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would have to see what kind of documents we have. The Auditor General audits our books and they feel that this is proper. The federal government will cover about $45 million. We have the rest on our books, about $23 million, and we can go back and see what kind of documents we have that would shed some light onto the question that the Member was raising.

Thank you. Would the Minister be willing to forward something on that he is able to dig up, to my office, because I have heard from accountants in the community that they are not quite sure that this is a debt that we should be shouldering, considering it is a liability we are carrying on behalf of someone else and they are also paying. I would kind of like to take a serious look at it and to get some information to compare to some information I have been told. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, we will do a little bit of digging and find out what we have in terms of documents that could shed some light on the questions that the Member is raising. Mr. Chairman, once again, it should be clear that we only carry the balance of what the federal

government is paying and what we are paying, so there is $23 million that goes against the debt wall and the rest is covered by the feds.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. We are on page 5-53, information item, debt repayment, operations expenditure summary. Agreed?

Moving on to page 5-55. Noting the clock, committee members, I will now rise and report progress.

Thank you, Minister McLeod and thank you and your witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses out of the Chamber.

Could I have a report of the Committee of the Whole, please, Mr. Abernethy.