Mr. Chairman, I’m just following the power numbers as well as the heating numbers and the water and sanitation numbers, and what I’m noticing is that water and sanitation seems to be higher than power. I mean, in the bigger picture it looks like the fuel cost is almost identical to water costs. I know it’s less than a million, but when you try to compare apples to apples here in this

scenario -- no bananas or oranges this time around -- the costs seem quite significant. Do you do any auditing to find out why water costs and why power costs are so high, and certainly fuel? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.

Mr. Chairman, the reason for that is the communities charge the NWT Housing Corporation a different rate than they do all of the other residents. We pay full, either full government rate or full commercial rate, which is considerably higher than the individuals or the private individuals that live in the community.

Mr. Chairman, I’ve heard that before, so it’s kind of nice to hear officially that it’s true. Is that considered right or reasonable from the government’s point of view, that we’re paying a full commercial rate or the highest rate possible on things like power or water? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the Member is asking my opinion whether I think it’s right. All I can say is that public housing units are charged the government water rate, which is three times the actual residential rate.

Is that based on some type of policy and, if it is, when did that get instituted? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, just trying to figure out how long this has been going on, I think it’s always been the case that the Housing Corporation units, public housing units are charged more than the residential rates. It certainly cuts into our budget and our ability to operate our units, but that’s been the practice and that’s what the communities are doing. Thank you.

If I’m approximately correct in that, three times the amount is how much more we’re paying than the normal rate. So if our water bill is almost $6 million, then a normal bill in this regard should -- the combined water bills, that is, when I refer to a normal water bill -- only be around $2 million. If we’re just using it as to subsidize the communities, why aren’t we just funnelling this money through MACA through some sort as opposed to doing it through the back door? It seems like a flawed policy that we’re inflating one side of the equation just to hide income under another process. Why isn’t it revisited on that basis? It should be under MACA as a direct grant. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, it is a concern and it is on our agenda to sit down with the NWT Association of Communities and also to talk to MACA about looking at some solutions. Mr.

Chairman, we know why the communities are doing it; they use the money to offset their costs, but I think the real reason is they know we get a subsidy or have been getting a subsidy from the federal government that they are also tapping into in a roundabout way.

Mr. Chairman, what type of auditing is being done on consumption? I have to tell you, I’ve been to different houses through public housing units and if you’re only paying $10, $20...Well, I don’t even know how much some people are paying. I know it’s very low, in some cases, just a few hundred dollars to be there. Sometimes there’s a disincentive to worry about consuming electricity in a reasonable manner, and perhaps on the same ticket would be the usage of fuel and water, when you don’t actually have to pay the real costs. What type of work is done through the local housing authorities to encourage people to use power, heat and water in a reasonable manner or in a...I’m searching for a word here. I guess I’m trying to say in a responsible way, to ensure that the people are being as responsible as possible as opposed to heating houses with the windows open, which I’ve seen in a number of cases, or leaving the lights on when people leave. What is the department doing to help educate the users of our system, so they act in a responsible way, help curb costs? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, a number of questions there. We do monitor the consumption on all areas including fuel, water and power usage. We do provide for programs that encourage people to become more educated around energy use. We do try to set the standard, for example, in the area of water usage and look at the other standards that are out there from the national organizations such as Health Canada where they recognize 65 litres of water per person per day. We are well below that. The amount allocated, the average set by MACA is 90 litres per person per day and we are certainly below that. So we do try to keep on top of consumption in all the different areas.

Mr. Chairman, the incentive, especially in the area of water, most of our houses are on tank systems so if you use too much water, you are going to have to go without for a couple of days, so most people really watch close in the communities.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a relief that at least people are taking an eye to this concern and maybe it’s not so bad in some areas. I am certainly glad to hear that. What does the department do when it comes to power consumption? I mean, in the context of power bills, do they take a look at those and monitor those and say you have four people in your house, how

come…Do they compare that to an average household usage somewhere in the range of 700 to 1,200 kilowatts a month? Do they do that type of analysis? The reason I am asking this is if they are funding public housing and people aren’t paying a user-pay system, they are paying the actual, they end up forgetting about how important it is to use things like utilities responsibly. They have no responsibility for them at all. So I am trying to find out what is Housing doing in the area of utility bills such as power. Thank you.

What portion do they have to pay? Can you explain that in a percentage or is that a flat rate? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, it’s a flat rate. Each client is required to pay six cents a kilowatt hour.

Does that have a ceiling amount or is it just six cents no matter how many kilowatts they use? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, it’s a flat rate; six cents no matter how many they use.

What would be the average usage per household? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I am told it’s around 600 to 700 per household on the average.

Thank you. I am just trying to get a sense of it. Was that a power bill cost or was that how much the person pays or was he referring to kilowatts, 600 kilowatts? If he could explain that a little further as to what the actual person pays. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the Member asked about how many kilowatts on the average was used per household. It’s 600 to 700 kilowatts per household on the average and each individual or each client is required to pay six cents per kilowatt.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list is Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Chairman, the issue of units I have talked about in my region. I guess you need to upgrade some of the units. Just on this issue here, power, heating; some of the units, when you go into them you can see a half an inch to a quarter inch, you can see light under the door when you close the door. One of the complaints is you still

have to pay for the power that they use to heat their houses and that. I think the Minister knows this type of issue follows in our communities. I guess those units need to be fixed up. I am going to ask the Minister about working with the tenants. They are pretty well energy conscience, but sometimes it’s out of their hands because of how their units are built and they move with the freezing and thawing of the ground and it causes more difficulties. Is the Minister going to look at some of these units that need desperate repairs in terms of how to conserve energy? Have we looked at having some of these homes energy efficient, particularly the ones that have large families in their units that are overcrowded?

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. I am not 100 percent sure how that is relevant to the budget page we are working on, but I will go to the Minister for a response. If we could keep our questions focused on the pages we are dealing with, that would be great. Mr. McLeod.