Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me on my right I have Mike Aumond, deputy minister of Public Works and Services; and, Laurie Gault, director of Technology Service Centre.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, witnesses. General comments on the Department of Public Works and Services. Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciated the Minister’s general remarks, overview, here. I am happy to see a slight reduction in O and M budget for this department. Just going through it, some of the things that come up for me and I will likely ask questions on later, but some I will pose now in case he chooses to comment on them in his reply, I notice that asset management is one of the first areas of support. That, I assume, includes determining the energy systems that we put into new assets, the energy systems and energy efficiency opportunities. I am just wondering, is there a way of ensuring that there is a continual seeking out of the most efficient technologies to be employed there. I have often found in the past that this government has been quite slow in adopting some of the technologies. We seem to be getting better now. Theirs is a highlighted sensitivity there, but I am wondering what the mechanism is for ensuring that we stay on top of that in a better way than we have in the past.

I am also noticing that we provide a service of supplying fuel for the NWT Power Corporation. I am wondering if the cost of that service is incorporated into the cost of the energy charge by the Power Corporation or whether there is some other arrangement there.

We’ve talked before about deferred maintenance costs, the accumulation we’re facing and it’s noted again here, over $387 million with the added comment that that is expected to increase as the remaining facilities are assessed. So I am naturally wondering what proportion of the facilities we have accessed to date.

The Woodpile Remediation Program, $555,000 this year. I wonder how long this program has existed, what our funding has been in the past. It’s presented here as if this will complete the

inspection and remediation of woodpile foundations across the Territory or it could be interpreted as this is one step towards that. So I am wondering how far along on that we are and I will have other questions related to that as we get to it.

There is quite a list of projects of infrastructure that have adopted the pellet boilers and so on. I am wondering, just to determine the significance of this, whether we are able to take out any tank farms or whether we are making any savings on that magnitude yet. Of course, there will be the significant measure and whether our maintenance costs for those are going down. I will leave it at that for now, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Most of these areas are areas that we will be providing a lot more detail, but I will give some general comments regarding the issues that Mr. Bromley has raised.

First of all, the review of energy systems is a certain part of our asset management responsibilities and we always look for best practices as to what is happening in other jurisdictions and new technology, of course, we are always very mindful of cost and climate, being able to operate in this type of environment and climate.

The NWT Power Corporation has come on stream as to our petroleum products division responsibilities. It was an attempt to lower the cost of fuel through economies of scale, and, absolutely, they do charge for the cost of the fuel through this. It’s actually of benefit to them to work with us.

The Deferred Maintenance Program is something that is much needed. We have certainly tried to get as much investment in this area to tackle the deficit that we’re dealing with. We are completing our final inspections in this coming year and it’s the same as the Woodpile Program; we are in our third year in that program and any further repairs through the Woodpile Program will be done through the new program called Deferred Maintenance.

The question was raised about the possibility of closing down some of the tank farms as a result of wood pellets. We’re not quite at that stage. I’m not sure if we’d ever remove a tank farm until at some point we were totally comfortable. We have been working towards increasing the use of pellets and in a lot of our facilities we’ve added a number this year and will continue to do so. So far the potential for pellets has only been demonstrated in the southern part of the NWT and we’ve got to be starting to look at how we can accommodate that as we look at the cost of operation of our facilities further north. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

General comments. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’d like to thank the Minister for providing his opening comments. Welcome, Mr. Aumond, and it’s good to see Ms. Gault here as well.

I have just a few comments, Mr. Chairman, and I’ll start at the beginning. I think hopefully other departments are paying attention when you look at your opening comments, Mr. Minister, and some of the work that your department has done over the past 17 months and even carrying on a little bit further back into the last government. Out of all the departments, this one here has listened to concerns that Members have had, they’ve reacted positively, and they’ve done some very good and thorough research and analysis and the data collection, I mean, that’s been there. When we’ve had briefings with the Minister and his staff they were able to answer questions, they have done their work. That doesn’t go unnoticed, Mr. Chairman, and I wanted to give them some thanks for that today. Especially on the way the government approaches infrastructure and the capital planning process, we’re moving into this new system and I think time will tell that we’re doing the right thing. I think it’s being managed in an effective manner as well.

We’ve got some big things ahead of us. I appreciate the facility risk management and safety. I think there’s a lot of work that’s going to have to be required there. The department’s also done a good job on the Woodpile Remediation Program and the Deferred Maintenance Program as well. I see some pretty good things happening with Public Works.

The other thing I wanted to give them credit for, Mr. Chairman, and the reason I say this is that they listen. When the resupply happened and fuel prices fell, I think dropping the price 16 cents, that’s a real government that’s listening, a department that’s listening to the Regular Members and listening to the people that we’re here to serve. Again, some kudos for listening. I

If you look at Public Works and Services, too, they don’t just say they’re trying to find new ways to do business. They’re trying to become more efficient in the way they do things and that’s not lost on me either. I think they’re trying to do more with less. It seems to me to be a fairly forward-thinking department as well. Mr. Minister, you’ve got some good staff there that are doing some good things. Again, I think some other departments could take some of the work that you’ve done as a template to do some of their own work. When Ministers show up to briefings they should have done their research and they should have most of the answers. Far too often some departments come

forward and they’re unable to answer questions, they haven’t done the background, the research. But in most cases I think Public Works has done a stand-up job in that area. Also, on the energy efficiency side of things, too, I think as funding becomes available we’d be looking at more wood pellet boilers and I think that’s a step in the right direction again.

No negative comments, Mr. Chairman. Again, I do appreciate the hard work that the department and the Minister are putting into this area and they’re juggling a lot of complex things as well. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ramsay. Are colleagues okay? Having had the benefit of a response myself, I think normal protocol is to accumulate our input before. Yes. Okay. Before I go to the Minister, is there anybody else that would like to make general comments? Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m going to somewhat put a damper on the department here in terms of my colleague Mr. Ramsay’s comments. Certainly they are well taken.

I know the Minister has certainly listened in terms of when I went back home in terms of the price of fuel in our communities. They certainly appreciate the quick response. I’d like to say in terms of what Mr. Ramsay has said in terms of this department here responding to some of the needs in our communities in terms of lowering the costs of gasoline and heating fuel in my communities where they are so high that it was very scary for people to pursue their traditional lifestyle on the land. I want to say thank you to the Minister and staff for making some decisions for leadership to reduce the cost to make it bearable, just bearable, for my people to hunt, fish and trap in my communities. Also, to reduce the cost of living. I do want to say thank you to the Minister.

I do look at this department as putting some emphasis on some of the smaller communities. I will always state that some of the smaller communities need to be looked at in terms of the energy audits that are available from this government. There are certainly some good workers in the Sahtu that possibly could do some of the work. Also, having the energy audits into our facilities you also need to have some backup resources to support what the audits find out.

I’m somewhat lost for words in terms of the wood pellet heating systems. Again, more centralized around the larger centres. For the reasons, for the staff that had looked into these types of designs and certainly when you see these statements for these communities in part of the plans for DPW, it certainly makes you wonder if they forget some of

the smaller communities in the other ridings where some of these communities could have some other opportunities for the wood pellet heating systems or wood furnaces in our communities. When you look at probably the lowest cost of energy in the communities of the Northwest Territories, Fort Smith is rated as the lowest paying cost of energy and this government here is going to be looking at three facilities in Fort Smith to do some work to reduce the costs more for businesses. That’s somewhat mindboggling when you look at other operations in the Northwest Territories where we don’t have the luxury of the mines, the hydro-producing facilities built by the federal government, low cost of energy in the southern parts when you’re trying to do business in the northern parts that we seem to be third or fourth on the list to say this is where we need to look at reducing costs in our community.

I’m going to leave those comments to the Minister and I hope that this doesn’t become the trend of future governments or even this government again to look at where do we really need to put the dollars into some of these isolated communities that are paying the high, exorbitant costs of energy. That’s something that I think we missed the boat on in some of our smaller communities.

Mr. Chair, the local fuel delivery agencies are probably one of the hardest working people in the communities. Some of the facilities that this department has brought into the communities are well deserved and I see these facilities in our communities. I’m going to advocate for the one in Tulita. I’ve seen Deline’s facility, Fort Good Hope’s facility. I know the one in Tulita, the fuel delivery agency has been asking me about their facility and I hope that somewhere along the lines, in the books, this facility...I think he called it a shack compared to the other facilities that I saw that are operated by the petroleum products division. I know the one in Tulita over the years has contributed a high number of sales to this government in terms of volume of fuel spent in that one community. I’m going to advocate on his behalf and certainly for the people in my community. When they go drive up to that fuel tank it’s not a very good-looking picture. It’s not something you want to send home and be proud of. I would ask this department here to where they can find some movement to look at this facility.

Mr. Chair, I do want to say to the department here in terms of the woodpile remediation that it’s a very good project. As you know, a lot of our facilities were built with the woodpiles. Some of the facilities were built on muskeg, some were built on riverbeds, and when these woodpiles went in there they shifted and moved and it costs them dearly now. This is no fault to the department, but I think that in future some of these types of decisions should be made in consultation with our

community’s traditional knowledge of elders, for the sake of future construction of buildings. Sometimes we have a one-sided view of engineers or structural engineers and this is with their evidence in terms of ground testing, but sometimes the elders know a little more than the engineers. Case in point, in Deline the school is going through some woodpile remediation work and that, and there are other issues that we need to work together on in terms of building the best facility for our communities.

The Minister has indicated lots of money into the Deferred Maintenance Program. Again, when you look at some of our facilities, for example in Tulita, the old facility that’s there is an old building that’s sitting there. We have workers there who we expect to do standard, quality work in our community. That’s something that should be looked at.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I want to see if this department’s ever thinking about regionalization in terms of our workers. Right now we operate out of the Inuvik region. We have workers in the Sahtu but most of the direction is coming from the Inuvik regional office that flows into the Sahtu. We want to look at seeing where our regional office would have some more autonomy, more authority, more credence in terms of them making them own decisions in the Sahtu region rather than have the Inuvik region say what they can and can’t spend on certain projects, certain initiatives, certain things. They’re always waiting for the Inuvik region.

I do want to thank the Minister for acting fast on the school in Colville Lake on the furnace. I had been aware of it, but not until recently when Colville Lake called me. I want to thank the Minister for initiating a quick response to getting the furnace in there right away. I know if we had some regional autonomy, I think the region could have made that decision to fix that furnace as soon as possible.

Those are my comments to the Minister. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to comment on some of the initiatives of Public Works and Services. I know that when it comes to the community of Fort Simpson and the riding of Nahendeh, one of the biggest driving things, of course, was our Deh Cho Hall. Even though it’s closed up now, it still seems to be an item of concern for the community.

I thought the Minister could have been more proactive in assisting with our library needs as opposed to just not having the ability to extend the hall. At the same time, we do still need assistance

with our library. There are some short-term solutions, but in the long term I call upon the Minister to work with his colleagues and maybe his assistants in providing resources or working with the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment as one way that I look at his assistance.

I understand that there is a pressing need to close down the hall and I think that’s what they’ve done. I think a lot of issues stem from the issue of the Deh Cho Hall. Now there’s the disposal idea of what’s the best way to divest it from the government, if that’s what they want, or to decommission it totally. Just decommissioning it and finding a way of how to dispose of it has created some other concerns there, as well, Mr. Chair, that I just want to raise with the Minister. In terms of when I asked the Minister on behalf of the LKFN of disposal methods -- and I think there are guidelines and policies the government uses -- and the response we got, the LKFN took it, I think, very negatively only because the disposal guidelines say that first they’ll, I think, offer it to government department, second they’ll offer it to any businesses out there and/or organizations. Sorry, and/or local government organizations. The third one was they listed the LKFN as a society and the chief and the leadership took exception to that only because in terms of recognizing local governments and working with our aboriginal leadership, LKFN and many, many band organizations have taken great care and great attention to be an alternative government, especially the Dehcho. They are working towards that. They are using their Dehcho process to provide this. Then to have our government call them a society as opposed to a local government organization is something that I think we should stay away from. In fact, if it is a clause here or a guideline, Mr. Chairman, I believe that is something that should be addressed maybe with his Cabinet colleagues as well.

The other one was another issue stemming from our Deh Cho Hall in Fort Simpson. Of course, it is the whole initiative around this central heating and the providing of additional boiler systems for the community. I am not too sure where the department is heading with that. Maybe on the appropriate page I will ask that, Mr. Chairman. It is something that the community is interested in. I would sure like to get some answers as we deliberate this department.

I notice that, in the opening statements too, I have to commend the ministry as well for saving $200 in fuel costs and the ability to pass that on to our residents. It is a big thing. Primarily the big costs, of course, were up in the High Arctic. At the same time, there is still the ability to pass on some savings to the remote communities that are in my riding, Nahanni Butte and Trout Lake as well as Wrigley. Even though it is small change of a

downward nature, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. I would like to see more of the costs passed on again. I know that we are doing another winter haul here, which may or may not be completed, but passing on any costs in terms of petroleum products would sure go a long way. Just with that, Mr. Chairman, I will conclude my remarks to the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple topics I would like to touch on as well. I am very pleased with the Deferred Maintenance Program. I think that is something that is a positive thing to extend the life of the assets that we do have, the assets that we are not planning on replacing. In my communities there is very little infrastructure spending. Therefore, the deferred maintenance I think that is scheduled to go into the schools is very welcome. They have, like I said, aside from that, within the community boundaries there is very little activity except perhaps some of the work that the municipality is doing with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs.

I was pleased with the department on the costs of the fuel reduction. There is no question about that. If you buy a full tank of fuel, the costs would be astronomical to buy a full tank of fuel for a homeowner. If he wants to buy a full tank he would save himself almost $200. That is good. I think that people, especially the smaller volumes of gasoline that people were saying were right on the borderline of whether or not it was even feasible to hunt caribou, if it was just more feasible to just buy that amount of meat from the store than buy the gasoline to hunt the caribou, especially outside of Lutselk’e and Fort Resolution where there is quite a distance to travel to get to the caribou. In Lutselk’e this year they were four hours about. That is quite a bit of fuel to go get a few caribou. They would be able to get together and kill more caribou and make it more economically feasible for them to do the hunt. That small reduction in costs I think it is about at least 10 percent reduction in costs, which was welcome by communities I am sure. I haven’t talked to anybody about it, but I talked to them before you guys actually dropped the price, without thinking that you should drop the price. So people thought it was a good idea. I was pleased to be able to write to the chief in Lutselk’e to advise him that, after I got your letter, these were the new prices now. That was very good.

I continue to have an issue with the cost of TSC. I feel that the cost of TSC keeps growing and this is over a long period of time. It would be interesting to actually see what the original mandate or the original concept of TSC was. I think that one of the

objectives, I believe, was to save costs. I am not 100 percent sure, but I was thinking a mix back then and I thought that was one of the objectives was to save costs and also to improve services. I think that the Technology Services Centre has, over a period of time, improved the skills of the people working for the government, because you had to improve your skills in order to continue to run the computer because the server system is more readily available at your fingertips like you used to have when the technical services was in the departments. I think we have blown the idea that this is going to be more economical, for sure. I think we will find that the costs are very high. I think that one of the things the department should maybe look at is trying to find a way to control the cost. I think that just going to the departments and asking for a chunk of money from every department…I am not sure the departments are in a position to evaluate what they are paying for at this point. Or maybe changing the way you evergreen a computer, something so that it is just not…I’m not saying it is totally out of control, but it is just so that it doesn’t appear totally out of control, that there is some control to the cost and there is some idea that the cost is going to stop growing.

I agree that the service is improving. I don’t think there is better service if you have a good technical services team for computers in your own department. That is the ultimate. I think that saves all kinds of problems. I think that would have probably even helped with the whole HR systems that were introduced to the employees and so on. I look forward to maybe over the next couple of years seeing if there could be some more cost control over here on the Technology Services Centre; just to let the department know that we are watching the costs. I know that during the business plan review I think every department came up with the cost of TSC. It wasn’t like the MLAs are sitting there going this is a high cost. It was, like, the actual departments. It was fairly apparent, as the costs were coming out, that it was fairly substantial.

I, too, agree with my colleague Mr. Ramsay. I think the department is very responsive. I think that when we as MLAs have issues in the community that pertain to this department, they are fairly quick in responding and fairly positive as well. That is all I have to say. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. We are moving on to Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister McLeod.

Mr. Chairman, a number of issues are raised here. Certainly I appreciate the comments or the compliments from some of the Members regarding the department’s work. I certainly agree that the staff are working very hard to make some changes, hopefully for the better.

Mr. Chairman, there are a number of areas that we have really tried to work better and more efficiently. That includes the delivery of capital, the process, energy efficiency in dealing with the different maintenance. We also were quite concerned regarding the level of fuel, the cost of fuel that we provide to the communities. I am glad we have been able to make some changes. The fuel has been raised as an issue. Most Members are aware that this is a product that we deliver in full cost recovery and we expect as we move forward, now that we are providing fuel through the winter roads, we will be able to reduce our costs and pass on the savings to the communities.

A number of Members have raised the issue of biomass or pellets to the communities. Biomass is not restricted only to pellets, and in some areas wood would make just as much sense. We have to start looking at doing those type of projects that could determine whether or not it is feasible to put in wood boilers and things of that nature in the more northern part of the Northwest Territories where we know hauling truck loads or barge loads of pellets is certainly not feasible. We have been trying to target areas where we know have proven technology and can work. Fort Smith, for example, and Hay River, it does make sense to go into the schools and start putting in facilities that can provide heat through pellets. The technology is still fairly new, Mr. Chairman, and the cost for incorporating these new systems are all around half a million dollars, so it is not cheap.

In some other areas of the Territories hydro still makes a lot of sense and the Energy Committee is looking at how we can accommodate that. The woodpile remediation, as Mr. Krutko put it, will probably be something that needs to be done on an ongoing basis for many, many years, and we are hoping that we can look after the concerns and the different facilities that need attention through the new Deferred Maintenance Program, which is a little bit better funded.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Yakeleya, indicated that we need to incorporate traditional knowledge. I certainly agree. We have had proven examples where site selection and natural contaminants in the soil and historical use probably could have helped us avoid very costly initiatives that we had to end up either redoing or moving. The Clement Building in Tulita has been a concern for the community and for ourselves as we lease the facility, and of course that doesn’t qualify for remediation dollars from us as it is owned by somebody else, but we certainly could try to work with them to see if there is anything we can do and we also have been looking, with interest, to see, as other departments work with the Sahtu to create more independence in that area, to see what we can do. It is a challenge, of course, Mr. Chairman, because it would require new funding that we don’t have in this budget.

I am pleased to hear that the Member is quite happy with the new furnace at Colville School. That furnace was scheduled to be replaced at a later date, but we felt it was no longer proper for the school to be experiencing that many problems with that facility because of that one item, so it was a decision that the region recommended and we certainly supported.

Mr. Menicoche raised the issue of Deh Cho Hall and I certainly can appreciate the concern from the Member as this is a large facility in his community

and has been part of the community for many, many years. However, when we have orders from the fire marshal and we ask for extensions and extensions, and we have a new facility there, it is very difficult and probably not appropriate for us to try to squeeze or push the fire marshal anymore. He has been pretty lenient with us on that facility and we don’t expect that he would have given us any more extensions.

Mr. Chairman, the library really does not fall under the responsibility of Public Works and it wouldn’t be proper for us to start doing the work that really rightfully belongs to ECE.

The other issues regarding the policy which deals with disposal, we certainly can agree to look at that. We agree that band councils and Metis Nation organizations should probably fall in the same category as municipal governments. Band governments do right now fall under that category, but in the case where there is another municipal government in the community, it doesn’t.

Mr. Beaulieu raised the issue of the TSE costs. The costs for the TSE are basically the same as they were last year. We are seeing a slight increase in our budget of $45,000 for this upcoming year because of providing the BlackBerries and the service, and that is causing the increase and the budget for TSE still remains at pretty well the same as last year. The only time we have had increase in it was, as the Member indicated, brought up during our business plans, was when we had to expand the bandwidth, I think it was last year, and also we had to accommodate the Collective Agreement.

Mr. Chairman, there are a lot of concerns in the Delta and across the North, as Mr. Krutko indicated, about facilities, buildings shifting, piles and foundations also causing a lot of concern. We agree that we need to adapt. We need to come up with better designs and that is something we continue to work on.

We also recognize, and completely agree, that we have to continue to try to enhance and develop our capacity at the community level. This year we are adding one more apprenticeship position to the nine that we have already hired, and we want to continue to support and expand that program. Hopefully it will stay as an ongoing area that we can hire and train people in the communities.

This year we are quite fortunate that we are able to offset some of the high costs of energy and we are looking right now to see when is the best time to buy our next supply of fuel for the barge season, and we are delivering now that the winter roads are open and hopefully that is going to result in some significant savings.

Mr. Chairman, I made the comment or a responded comment that pellets versus wood boilers and the other comment I wanted to make in that area now, through our discussions with some of the people who are quite involved with the wood pellet industry, that a pellet producer probably would not have a very viable operation at this point because of the low number of communities, buildings and private homes that are actually on pellets. So that is something that would have to come as part of future development.

Certainly a number of issues have come out during the business plan process, during the capital process on the Inuvik schools, and we are really trying to work with the contractor there to ensure that they do hire local and hire as many from the aboriginal governments that are in the community. That has been raised as a concern and they have indicated that they will be doing that. Right now it is still fairly early in the project to really take a measured statement on it. The question was raised whether the site development was part of the negotiated contract. The site development was part of a separate tender and that was awarded to a local company. The pilings were part of the negotiations. The site development was one contract and the pilings are part of the negotiated contract and we have, as the Member indicated, gone out with a tender for the office complex.

There was an issue raised on the deficiency at the hospital in Inuvik; permafrost issue. For the Member’s information, that has been looked after and has been rectified. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for those comments, Minister McLeod. That concludes general comments, opening remarks. We’re ready to move on, but before we do that, how about if we take a break.

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Okay. I will call Committee of the Whole back to order. We have concluded general comments. We’ll just take a quick glance at the department summary, 7-7. Then we’re moving onto 7-8, infrastructure and investment summary, information item.

Agreed. Page 7-9, information item, revenue summary. Agreed?

Page 7-10, information item, active positions.