As I stated, the facilities are under review. The foundation has also been looked at within our department. Those two reports, we’re expecting them to be completed by the end of March/early April. Then we will be sitting down with the standing committee again. What we found on a going-forward basis, what we should do and providing options. At that time, Mr. Chair, I certainly will be seeking some input from the Members on how we can proceed to the next step. At that time, we will have more detailed information. So it’s currently under review as we speak. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Certainly this facility would have some attention in terms of the picture the Minister has painted for us here. I want to ask the Minister how long has this type of situation been going with the ration you have here. If this was going on last year, did we have the same type of numbers with the team and the same type of dollars being spent? I can remember since being here and the first time being elected, the communities that were asking for RCMP officers; I think it was around 11 or 12. We haven’t done very much over the last five or six years. So I think this one here has to be looked at carefully in terms of releasing some of these dollars to the communities and having RCMP members present in about 10 or 11 of our communities. So far, we don’t have it here. There is something here that certainly slipped under the radar in terms of efficiencies of government operations, especially with the amount of dollars going each year into a facility and the communities are paying right now by not having members in their communities, but we are always hearing from Justice or government that there is no money, there is no money to be found. I would ask the Minister how long historically has this facility been underutilized and overstaffed?

This particular challenge that we have with inmates at Arctic Tern has been in the works for five years now that the numbers have been low. So part of the reason we are having this discussion and our proposed cuts last year was regarding Arctic Tern. We want to be an effective and efficient government, as the Member alluded. So it all hinges on the report that’s being developed, and in April we will certainly go back to the standing committee with what the next step will be. Right now we are compiling all the information and in due time, in April, we will certainly go back and get more input from the Members on what we should be doing with this particular facility. As it stands, we are operating at 14.5 PYs. It used to be 20, plus seven relief staff, I do believe, with an operating budget of $2.5 million. So we have downsized it, but we are operating at that level at this time. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. I have two more Members on my list -- Mr. Jacobson and Mr. Krutko -- but before we continue, we will just take a short break.

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I’d like to call Committee of the Whole back to order. We’re on page 9-27. On my list is Jackie Jacobson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a couple of comments regarding Arctic Tern Female Young Offender Facility operating with 14.5 staff. Just a comment in regard to it must be a good thing not to have youth, it not being full, so we must be doing something right up in the Beaufort-Delta. It’s only four. The most well-protected facility staff around. So keep up the good work, Arctic Tern.

Getting on to the proper funding for community justice programs. I have a question for the Minister regarding the training for the staff and for the board. How is that funding utilized? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson. Minister Lafferty.

Mr. Chair, certainly we provide funding towards the community justice programming, the committee and also the coordinator for the community. We also provide funding for training the committee members and also for the coordinator. Of course, we want to have effective community justice programming, so we’ll continue to provide that support.

Mr. Chair, I did mention that the program will be under review. I think we need to strengthen that program because I see that as a preventative measure in the communities. Not all communities have this justice committee in place, or the coordinator, so we need to identify those communities as well and why they haven’t accessed the funding. The funding is there for them; it’s just a matter of pushing forward and identifying the pros and cons. Certainly we do provide as much support as we can at the community level. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Again, it’s a really good program. You know, we like taking care of our own in regard to preventative...With regard to the shortfall of cash, every year in my communities we’re having a shortfall of cash with the community justice, with rental space, meeting areas, even honorarium. People cut themselves off the honorarium and go for free just to keep the program running. Is there any way, in the smaller communities, that they could have an extra infusion of cash if needed? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, the funding that we provide on an annual basis to the communities varies whether it be, let’s say, the Paulatuk coordinator and per capita funding and the federal funding commitment. The funding area does vary from community to community. Some of the communities may be struggling or some have over-expenditures; it could be the high cost of living or the rentals and whatnot. Those are the things that we need to take into consideration during our review. I think it’s important to highlight those key factors. I’m glad that the Member is raising those issues, because it’s important to get as much input from the communities as we can from our departmental perspective and have ongoing discussion if there needs to be an increase and in what areas, the purpose of the increase and so forth. We definitely need to strengthen this programming area. I think that’s where we have been focusing and we will continue to focus. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Next on my list is Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, want to speak on the young offenders facilities, more importantly, in the Territories as a whole. He touched on the Arctic Tern facility and it costing $2 million with 14.5 staff and four inmates. What other communities are they in, Hay River, Fort Smith...What are the expenditures of those other facilities and what’s the number of intake by way of inmates in those facilities?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister Lafferty.

Mr. Chair, the list of corrections that we have in place: North Slave Correctional Centre, we have a breakdown of just over $10 million; South Mackenzie Correctional Facility, just over $4 million; Fort Smith correction, $3.9 million; Arctic Tern, $2 million; North Slave Young Offenders, $3.3 million. Those are the areas of the corrections that we’ve allocated funding to. Mahsi.

Do you have a cost breakdown per inmate per facility?

Mr. Chair, we can provide that detailed information. We don’t have it at our fingertips right now but we’ll be more than happy to provide that detailed information to the Members. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, the reason I ask is that the Tl'oondih Healing Society ran programs before on behalf of this government, but they had to break even based on the number of clients that they’ve run through that program. Their break-even point

was about $175 per inmate just for the program, for a two-week program. They were almost losing money. Just to maintain the program, you had to have, I think it was 16 people at each of those programs to make it economically viable to run a business. The business has to do it in regard to the number of intakes they take, making sure they’ve got a dollar value for each person in the program and you had to break even. We’re expecting the private sector, the NGOs to have to work on a break-even business plan. Why is this government not doing the same thing? Yet we’re the ones who are telling groups that we’re only going to pay you $175 per person per program and that’s all we’re going to guarantee. I think on that basis, that you know that the cost to run programs is being run a lot cheaper by the private sector than it is in the government. I find it kind of odd that you can have four inmates in a program which is costing $2 million with 14 staff, but cost per inmate based on four people, I mean, that’s a lot of money you’re spending to basically operate and functionally maintain that type of an operation.

I’d like to know...You know, the frustration that people have just trying to run programs through this government or even put in a proposal to this government to run a simple program like an alcohol and drug program or an on-the-land program, even when you talked about the wilderness camp program, these people are struggling just to provide that service because they have costs, but as a government we only guarantee them based on cost per person. I’d like to know is that a feasible way of running a business if we’re telling the private sector well, we’ll only give you so much per person but yet we’re spending a lot more money per person based on the cost to maintain and operate these facilities.

Mr. Chair, of course we’re not in a business. We provide services to the Northwest Territories and we do fall under the federal Corrections Act as well. There are liability issues as well. We have to take all that into consideration. Tl'oondih has been operating in the past and I think those are the areas we’ve focused on in the past and that’s part of the reason why this justice committee we’ve been pushing lately as part of the preventive measure. Of course, we don’t want people in a system, let’s say behind bars, if we can do something at the community level. I think that’s part of the reason why we’re investing so much into the community justice area. Having correctional inmates out on the land, as well, and rehabilitating them back into the community, those are the areas that we are focusing on within our Justice department. With the Arctic Tern, we’re at the stage where we need to decide what to do, I guess in April, with the input from the Members. That’s where we are with that, Mr. Chair. Mahsi.

I’m glad the Minister touched on the point of this government’s responsibility to provide services. For some communities we’re begging for services and at what cost. I think that for us to get the government’s ear to get police services, we’re looking at committees in regard to justice committees set up in our communities and we’re always being told there is no money. Yet you can run and operate a facility for $2 million for four inmates. It’s something that communities just can’t understand.

When you say that you’re in the business of providing services, that means to 33 communities in the Northwest Territories. That’s talking about services to 40,000 people in the Territories and being fair to everyone to realize that you are in the business of providing services to the general public. That means in general in the sense of everyone. I think that by your statement there alone saying that, well, sorry we’re in the business of providing services, but it’s going to cost us, you know, $2 million or $5.3 million for young offenders facilities.

Again, I’d like to ask the Minister -- you’ve mentioned that there’s a review going on and a report coming out -- do you the most inmates or intake in regard to the Arctic Tern facility this year and what was the lowest by way of numbers? You say there are four people now. What was the lowest number of people who were in there this year and what was the highest?:

Mr. Chair, we can certainly provide that information but, to my understanding, it does vary. The lowest we had is nil; zero. The highest we had was around seven or eight. That’s the information that we can certainly share with the standing committee members. We can certainly provide more detailed information in that respect. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Can the Minister tell me how long there was no one in the facility at any period of time?

Mr. Chair, there has been transition at times. Let’s say one or two days that there has been nobody at the facility. Mahsi.

Just a question on the potential use of that facility. I mean, at some point you’re going to have to replace the RCMP barracks in Inuvik. It does have the facility where you basically have to have people in the jail facilities. Is there any plan to possibly use Arctic Tern during a transitional period when you will be replacing, possibly, the detachment out of Inuvik? It is old; it needs to be replaced. Is that something that this government has thought of, future uses for the Arctic Tern facility?

Mr. Chair, there have been numerous discussions on options for the facility itself. Since last year it was part of the cuts and there has been a lot of discussion on how we can fully utilize our existing GNWT assets. RCMP are certainly considering the facility. At one point in time the community of Inuvik was also considering utilizing that facility as well and also education learning centre, but there have been some changes there. Those are just the discussions that we’ve been having. Yes, there have been some options to utilize that facility by other parties. Mahsi.