Thank you, Minister McLeod. We are on page 11-19. Are there any other questions? Information item, airports, active positions.

We are moving on to page 11-21, which is activity summary, highways. Mr. Krutko.

Just in regards to highways, as we have seen the weaving that we are starting to see because of permafrost and also we are starting to see a lot more sloping, sliding along the hillsides and also in regards to the effects it is having on our infrastructure. As a department, is there anything that is being done to find ways to mitigate some of these challenges? In the past we used to use permafrost. It worked for us by way of building on top of it and building layers over top. We are starting to see that with the temperature changes it is having an effect on world conditions, especially in the northern parts of the Territories. We are especially seeing it on the Dempster in regards to the challenges we are seeing by way of wash roads and whatnot. Are there studies or anything being done to try to mitigate this problem that we are seeing on our highways?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister Michael McLeod.

Mr. Chairman, the Member raises a very good point. That has been a huge challenge for our department. Given the lifecycle of our many roads coming to mid-life, requirement of upgrades and given our deficit situation over the last while, we have seen some deficiencies occur as some of what should have been another layer of gravel placed on top so the quartz will come through. It causes some concern, along with climate change, of course.

Mr. Chairman, our staff is using new designs and new systems to build the roads. We are incorporating more geotech, more ways to prevent the permafrost from melting. We are building the roads wider, providing wider shoulders and things of that nature to ensure that our roads are not slumping or not causing concern. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, in regards to another aspect of the problems we are seeing especially on the Dempster Highway, the collapses that we have seen over the years in regards to the culverts that have collapsed, I think I asked for a report from the department. The majority of those culverts are almost 35 years old. They were put in place when the Dempster was built. They are in the process of having to replace a lot of these culverts. Again, because of the lifespan of these culverts, there is a risk associated with the public travelling that highway where we have had collapses. I would like to know exactly are there any plans to replace the remaining culverts on the Dempster Highway that haven’t been replaced yet, but, more importantly, ensuring that ongoing inspections are done and ensuring that the safety of the general

travelling public is kept in mind because of the incidents that happened in the last couple of years with the culverts that have collapsed on the Dempster Highway.

That is an area for concern and we recognize as a result of some of the issues that have come forward regarding highways and given the lifecycle of our culverts. Also, as our roads age, our culverts are also in need of replacement. We have stepped up our inspections and will continue to have more inspections as we go forward. We also will be doing accelerated repairs to try to keep up with the demands that are being placed on the culverts, given their age. Thank you.

Another area I noticed that you talk about some 30 bridges that you also have to look at in regards to managing the project. I know that, in light of the Deh Cho Bridge, there are other bridges that still have to be put in place. One of the areas that I’m working on is the area of the Peel River Bridge, which was something that was supposed to be done when the Dempster Highway was built back in 1972. Yet, there is the possibility of doing that, but I think it is important that we do have to find a way to work in partnership.

I know that the Deh Cho Bridge is a model that we can build on. I think that it is something that we should consider and should be part of the Territorial Highway Strategy in regards to all the other ferry operations. There was talk about Liard, the Peel and the Mackenzie. I think that we have to look at other jurisdictions. You go on the Yukon. At almost every crossing, there is a bridge. I think that there is no reason that we can’t be trying to accomplish the same thing. I would just like to know where we are going in regards to the Highway Strategy, looking at the pricing, the ferry operations and the bridges at some point.

Mr. Chairman, we certainly have been trying to deal with the large amount of requirements for bridges in the Northwest Territories. We have actively worked on 37 new bridges that we’ll have in place over the last while. We have now a total of 77 bridges in the highway system. There are still five major bridges that need to be addressed at some point. It is a concern. The Liard River Bridge, the Ndulee crossing, the Bear River Bridge, the Peel River Bridge, as the Member has indicated, and also the Mackenzie crossing at Tsiigehtchic are all requirements that probably should have been addressed at the time of the construction of the road. We are hoping that some of these bridges will be addressed if there is ever a Mackenzie Highway put in place.

At the same time, we are looking at options, as the Member has indicated. A number of times in this House, there is a cost of not having a bridge. There is a cost in the communities and we are looking, as part of our strategies, to lower the cost of living in communities. How do we address that without having the actual dollars to construct a very expensive piece of infrastructure in the communities that the Member represents? We have been able to use new technology, new methods of building ice roads. That has allowed us to get across the river or across the ice bridge crossing quicker to probably opening it up a couple of weeks earlier, but overall there is still a need that needs to be addressed in the form of building for the long term a permanent piece of infrastructure and we will continue to work to that and continue looking at options. At this point we don’t have the resources to build a piece of infrastructure. The Member has done a lot of work with a number of companies and with the aboriginal government in his area to review the situation and we will be glad to continue working with him to see if there is a way forward on this. Thank you.

Again, going back to the original questions, I think that, as part of our Highway Strategy, we do have to have some sort of a policy in place to allow to look at things such as P3s in regards to sort of the Deh Cho Bridge or even the Mackenzie Highway. That has to be an option or an alternative. I know we don’t have the capital dollars to do all of these things. I think that we have to find a way to finance it, knowing that we don’t have tens of millions of dollars. We need to do all these things, but I think we do have to look at alternative ways of financing projects.

I was in Manitoba with other Members of the House where we drove on a highway which was built on behalf of the hydro company -- some 50 kilometres, which was surprising. It was $25 million, which up here is about $1 million a kilometre. I think that it is something that we have to look at again. It was a P3. I think we have to find ways of delivering on these things, but, more importantly, do it within sight of the existing government policies and the financial abilities of this government to deliver on those things. I think also it has to be part of the long-term strategy of the government. I would just like to know, knowing that we have the Deh Cho Bridge project in place -- it is one of the options that we have looked at -- how do we implement that through the NWT Highway Strategy to eventually replace ferry operations with permanent bridges?

Mr. Chairman, there is, I guess, the need to engage the federal government on such a project. We are watching them with great interest to see where the P3 office will end up. We have not seen any projects funded through this program. They have indicated that they

still need to set up their board and that has been moving very slowly. Failing that, we would need the federal government to step up and provide the necessary resources.

As I mentioned, there has been some interesting developments over the last while on the Peel River Bridge and we will keep working with the Member on it. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list is Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am just wondering where we are at on winter roads. I was just crunching the numbers, $3.791 million this year for 1,400 kilometres, about $2,660 per kilometre. That sounds like a pretty reasonable deal to me, even though we are up possibly 45 percent from a couple of years ago on the cost of winter roads. Has the life of the winter roads…I know the duration is variable from year to year, but has the technology managed to keep up with that so far or is the life of the winter roads still roughly the same?

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we have done a number of things over the last while to try to enhance the Winter Road Program, including signs for safety reasons. We have tried to step up the highway patrols on the winter road system. We have also tried to incorporate new technology into building the roads and increase our maintenance cycles. We have requested some of the industry people that were utilizing certain portions of the road to invest. We have managed to build quite a few bridges over the last while that have extended the season. The winter road system is still usually dictated by weather. We have done a lot of work, but it is quite far from being an all-season road, that is for sure.

Is there a point where the cost goes up to where it is worth putting in an all-season road or some other means of transportation? Does the department do that sort of analysis? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I think we do some costing in terms of comparison of what it would cost to try to build an all-season road. We have taken some measures only because we have been assisted by the federal government. For example, on the Tlicho winter road, we will be moving forward to take what is now an ice road or a road built over mostly lakes and stream crossings, put it on land and make a winter road that is a little safer than the current one utilized. Mr. Chairman, it is quite difficult to look at the potential of building an all-season road without the federal government’s

involvement, because it is a very costly undertaking. Thank you.

I have a last question. It seems like we keep getting surprises thrown at us in different ways, certainly around the world now. If there was a case where a winter road couldn’t be put in because of climate conditions or weather conditions, do we have emergency plans in place for resupply? That might be Public Works and Services, but I imagine this department would be working with them on that. Thank you.

The concern that the Member raises has been very close to being a reality on a number of occasions. We are able to compensate for it by adding additional resources and making the resupply happen. But I guess in a hypothetical situation, the community that was not able to get its supplies in on time or whatever the case may be, we would probably be forced to go to the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs that has emergency measures or emergency operations within their responsibilities and we would have to look at flying or another mode of getting the product in or the supplies in.

That sort of makes common sense to me. I am wondering if the thinking has been done. I wonder if the Minister would know if MACA has been thinking about that sort of thing and putting in a sort of plan in place or at least contemplating…Sorry. Maybe I can hold that for later. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. We would work with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs to address the issue to look at providing an emergency type of situation that would allow us to get into the community. If it is feasible, it would be forced to fly the fuel in, or if it is a community that is on the ice or along the river system that provide enough short-term assistance until the product was able to get there in the summer. But there is a committee, a working group that is made up from different departments that would look at each situation. It is something that is being monitored.

Next on the list I have Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of questions on 11-21 for the Minister. My assumption is that contract services is what they use to contract the highway contractors that maintain the various highways. How much of the 2,200 kilometres of all-season highway is done by contract as opposed to directly from DOT staff?