Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012, and do the Department of Justice and Human Resources and, time permitting, Industry, Tourism and Investment.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Does committee agree?

Thank you. We will continue with the Department of Justice and I will ask the Minister if he wishes to bring in witnesses. Mr. Lafferty.

Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister. Does committee agree?

Thank you. Mr. Sergeant-at-Arms, please bring the witnesses into the Chamber.

Okay, if I could ask the Minister to please introduce your witness.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. I have with me Bronwyn Watters, deputy minister of Justice. Mahsi.

Thank you, and welcome. We will continue on page 7-4, committee, Department of Justice, community justice and corrections. Questions? Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to ask the Minister about the infrastructure in connection to the federal government’s new approach on getting tough on crime bill. That would possibly put some constraints on our capital infrastructure in terms of that bill and how the federal government sees programs or facilities right across the North. I want to know if we’re prepared to handle some of the fallout of this approach by the federal government towards the Department of Justice in terms of corrections and infrastructure as it relates to the get tough on crime bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. The new initiative on getting tough on crime has been talked about at the federal/provincial/territorial Ministers meeting as well. So we are closely monitoring the progress and we do have the capacity at this moment, but definitely this is an ongoing discussion that we will be having with the federal government.

At the same time, we’re really focusing on the preventative measures, as well, because it was said yesterday that we would try and prevent people from going to prisons or institutions. So those are the areas that we are continually focusing and monitoring, the preventative measures. Also, we’re working very closely with the federal Justice Minister and also Public Safety Ministers. Mr. Chair, Mahsi.

The questions I’m going to ask are on capital infrastructure. So they’re going to skate in between a fine line in terms of how the programs are associated; it’s a key component to my questions. So I want to ask the Minister, he said that they have the capacity and I know that there’s a high population of aboriginal inmates at the centres here and that they are housed in these, what we call pods, and sometimes there’s three inmates to a cell and these pods are beyond the capacity of holding the inmates in a safe manner. The Minister has indicated that they feel that they have the capacity, but for me it brings a safety concern in regard to the facility that they’re housing them in and I think that there’s other means or infrastructure that we could use, such as the wilderness camps and preventative camps, that would be more beneficial, I believe.

I want to know from the Minister about capacity and infrastructure in terms of what we have before us. It seems like we’re just managing and hoping that it doesn’t explode so that we might pay for it dearly in other areas. So can the Minister assure me that these pods in these facilities are not at critical mass in terms of safety reasons? Are we not looking at other infrastructure other than just housing them in a facility such as the North Slave or the South Slave institutions? Thank you.

We closely monitor our institutions in the Northwest Territories, especially when it comes to capacity within our institutions. There is room for growth, but at the same time we’re trying to take inmates out to on-the-land programs in the Sahtu region in the Member’s riding. Again, this has been very successful and we will continue to do so, and we’re opening that up to other regions that are interested as well. So, Mr. Chair, this is an area that, again, we’ll monitor. But I can assure the Member that there is room within our institutions and if we’re at a

crunch, then definitely we’ll get back to the standing committee members to say we’re at a critical stage and we need to seriously look at these areas, but we aren’t at that point yet. When it comes time, then we’ll definitely give Members a heads up. Mahsi.

I certainly hope that the Minister, when he presents the budgets on capital infrastructure that we’ll see an increase in these wilderness camps, these so-called bush camps that would house inmates.

I understand that the facilities in the North are quite overcrowded and these wilderness camps don’t happen as much as we would like them to. They’re sporadic throughout the year and in the meantime we have capacity issues at these facilities.

Again, in these cells that these inmates are sharing, there are sometimes three inmates to a cell and there are different things that we need to ensure the safety of everybody in these facilities. So that’s why I’m asking that the Minister, when he comes before the House to look at more focus on wilderness camps, infrastructure, capacity. He talks about the preventative measures and I think the Minister is on the right path when he has that type of language in going forward with his Department of Justice to look at situations that we are faced with now in our institutions, especially our correctional institutions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We’re talking about programming that will go into further business planning detail. I can provide more detailed information at that point, but at the same time, just for the record, the stats that we have, as far as my knowledge, there hasn’t been any three individuals in a cell, from the stats that we have in front of us. Also, there are talks of overcrowding. I did state that there is space available, but definitely we don’t want to fill it with individuals, but we want to take individuals out on the land more.

Again, I’d like to refer to the Sahtu and the successful pilot project that we’ve done in the past on-the-land program, and we’ll continue to do that and we’ll continue to invest in those areas. We feel that it’s important and we need to focus more on the preventative measures at the community level. Mahsi.

Thank you. I said, Mr. Chair, that when we talk about capacity and we talk about infrastructure, capital, sometimes you just need to wade a little bit into the program, and certainly I would welcome a sit down with the Minister to talk about programs; that’s not an issue. The Minister is actually very good to me in terms of talking about program issues. I’m happy to sit down and talk with him.

I’m talking about facilities, capital infrastructure, when it comes before us, that programs like the

Sahtu, like he mentioned, is a great success and we wish it to be more successful by increasing the capital dollars into programs. I don’t see anything right in front of me in terms of capital infrastructure. We’re still at the same spot we were four years ago. Things change in the wilderness camps. Just like institutions, as he’s indicated here, need fixing, so do our wilderness camps need fixing. The machinery needs fixing. Those are capital dollars just like they have in the system here. That’s what I’m talking about. He can talk about this, but gee whiz, get some structured capital dollars into those camps. I haven’t seen anything since those wilderness camps started up in the Sahtu. Same budget every year. That’s what I’m talking about. That’s what I want to let the Minister know. Programs we can talk about until the cows come home. But right here I want to see some changes. Hopefully the Minister will do that in the future.

Again the program in the Sahtu region under the leadership of the elders there has been very successful, but we haven’t really seen or heard anything on the breakdown of the equipment to date. Definitely if there is a concern that may have been brought forward, I’d like to hear that concern or those suggestions. We’re always open to improving our programming. If there are problems or issues with certain equipment, definitely we need to deal with that, because safety is the prime factor and we need to deal with that right away.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Next on my list I have Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to raise once again the issue of community policing, especially in the community of Wrigley in my riding. I know, of course, that the government supports two of the smaller communities getting a full RCMP detachment and it would, of course, have given me great pleasure to have seen that in our capital plan. I know that I spoke with the Minister in the House last week and he spoke about being at the Justice Ministers federal/provincial/territorial meeting. Maybe the Minister could just advise me of some of the deliberations that happened and speaking with the federal Justice Minister where exactly the detachments or the capital for the detachments would come from. I’m pretty sure it would be a federal responsibility there. What’s the timing like? When can we expect, here in the North, fully operating detachments in the community of Wrigley and as well as I believe Gameti was the other one that this government certainly supports?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Couple questions there. Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. This particular subject, the two detachments that we’ve committed and we continue

to commit ourselves to as the GNWT, we provide policing already to Wrigley and Gameti, policing out of Simpson. To deal with Wrigley and Gameti is based out of Yellowknife, working closely with Behchoko detachment.

When it comes to a detachment, of course it’s a federal responsibility. At the same time I did address that with two federal Ministers last week -- Minister of Justice and Minister of Public Safety -- the importance and how critical it is to have these two detachments as they’ve been slated for 2011. We want to proceed further. We want to follow through with it. We informed the two Ministers that we’re already providing policing services but the detachment is still an obstacle in a way. Could the federal department fulfill their obligation?

I’ve got a lot of support from the small jurisdictions, as well, northern jurisdictions of the provinces. Our two territorial counterparts, Nunavut and Yukon, are very supportive as well. This is an area that we’ll continue to follow through.

We’re just drafting up a letter to Minister Vic Toews, Public Safety, and follow through with what we’ve discussed last week and with my two territorial counterparts. We’re going to meet with them and discuss further the importance of having these two on the budget that was highlighted.

We are also, just for Members’ information, looking at other options as well. We’re waiting for the federal, but what can we do in the meantime? Those are options we are working on with the communities and we’ll continue to do so.

I will be going to the Member’s riding. We’re still working on the dates, I believe in December. Those are the areas we’ll continue to stress, and we’re very passionate about that as the territorial government. The federal government is still discussing that.

Just for my reference, was there any indication from the federal Ministers as to the timing of the detachments? I understood, talking with our Member of Parliament, that it may actually be in the capital plan. Has the Minister seen anything like that? Is he able to at least give a round, an estimated date of when the federal government may seriously consider providing the capital dollars for the detachments in these communities?

There’s been a lot of talk, whether it’s with the MP or Ministers. We also asked specifically, too, if it was in their capital plans. All the information that was given to us was there, was money identified, but some are in future years. Until we see the actual confirmation from the federal Minister, we’re at a stage where we want to get more detailed information, more concrete information from the Minister. That’s why I want to follow through with the actual meeting, to meet with

him one on one. I’m hoping to get some sort of concrete answer from him on where it stands.

For Members’ information, I’m also working with other colleagues within the federal government to push this further as well, other departments. I think we are making some progress, but our meeting coming up, hopefully in November, we’ll find out more detailed information. As it stands, it just states future years.

I’ve got nothing further to add. I just urge the Minister and our government to continue to press the matter. I don’t know, the Minister sounds like there’s a meeting in November. I’d be pleased to be given notice about that.

The other one is, I don’t know if and when we do our NWT Day it might be another opportunity to raise that issue as well.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Just a comment there. Committee, we’re on page 7-4, Department of Justice, activity summary, community justice and corrections, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $626,000. Agreed?

We have nothing in legal aid services. We’re moving on to page 7-8 through page 7-10, the financial summary, financial details on page 7-9. Any questions? So, Department of Justice, activity summary, court services, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $200,000. Agreed?

Under services to the public from pages 7-11 through 7-13. Committee, questions? Page 7-12, details. The Department of Justice, activity summary, services to the public, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $120,000.

Next we have services to government on page 7-14 through 7-16. Details, financial details on 7-15. Committee, we have the Department of Justice, activity summary, services to government, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $150,000.

Thank you, committee. I believe that sends us back to the departmental summary on page 7-2. The Department of Justice, department summary, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $1.096 million

Does committee agree that that concludes the capital estimates for the Department of Justice?

Thank you, committee. Thanks very much to the Minister and to your witness, Ms. Watters. I would ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort Ms. Watters from the Chamber.

Committee, next on our list of departments is the Department of Human Resources. Does committee agree?

I will ask the Minister if he wishes to bring in witnesses. Minister McLeod.

Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister. I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.

Committee, we are going to proceed with the Department of Human Resources. I would like to call on Minister McLeod to introduce the witness.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me I have Tom Williams, deputy minister of Human Resources.

Thank you, Minister. Welcome to the House, Mr. Williams. Committee, we have, to begin with, the department summary on page 2-2, which we will defer until we complete the detail. We’re starting with human resource strategy and policy. It begins on page 2-3 and goes through 2-5. Financial details are on 2-4. Mr. Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There’s one item here on shift scheduling software. I was wondering if I can get the Minister to just give me a quick update. I understand that primarily or initially this is going to be used for shift scheduling at Stanton, but I understand that in the future it will be available for other facilities like corrections facilities. Can you confirm that?

Also, has any analysis been done on how much we expect this could save us over time by way of scheduling more effectively with less redundancy and overlaps and double times and things like that? How much do you think we’re going to save and is it going to be available to go into other areas other than health?

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Payback, Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. What this project will do is it will allow us to streamline our administrative processes through fixing the foundation as part of our 20/20: A Brilliant North, the NWT Human Resources strategic plan. This will

allow us to reduce the significant inefficiencies of people and manual-based shift scheduling.

With the software based shift scheduling, services will be used to maximize resource usage. This will include having the right qualified staff in the right place at the right time, monitoring rules for overtime to maximize regular hours versus overtime, and utilizing existing staff to the maximum within collectively bargained working hours.

Now, our preliminary estimates indicate that we will save about $550,000 per year in avoided overtime and third weekend time costs. As we go further into the process, it is our expectations that it will allow all departments and agencies that have shift workers... In addition to Health and Social Services, there is the Department of Justice, Environment and Natural Resources, and those departments will also be able to streamline shift scheduling, reduce administrative costs and make more time available for core services.

That is really great news. It’s nice to see us come forward with a program that is going to pay for itself in a year and a half, so I am quite happy with that and I look forward to you getting that implemented and utilized across the government. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Just a comment there and I think, committee, we are on page 2-4, Department of Human Resources, activity summary, human resource strategy and policy, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $940,000. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. That concludes the detail for the department and we will return to the departmental summary on page 2-2. Department of Human Resources, department summary, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary $940,000. Agreed?

Thank you, committee. Does committee agree that this concludes the Department of Human Resources 2011-2012 capital estimates?

Thank you, committee. I would like to thank the Minister and his witness, Mr. Williams, and ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort the witness from the Chamber.

Thank you. What is the wish of committee? As per committee’s discussion this morning, Mr. Menicoche.

I will now rise and report progress.

Can I have the report of Committee of the Whole, Mr. Bromley.