Mr. Chairman, specific to page 5-58, I was looking at the numbers here. I was just trying to get a sense as to programming value and make sense of it. If I look at electrical power, we go in the actuals of 2009-10 budget year of $6.5 million but it drops. We will call it relatively stable for the 2010-11 to the 2011-12 year. I am just trying to get a sense of how power has gone up, everything has gone up, but I am just trying to follow why the numbers haven’t really changed much. It just seems as if they don’t fluctuate the way everyone else’s house is going up. My power bill has skyrocketed. Everyone I know who has complained about power has gone up significantly, but it just doesn’t seem like the water and power costs are reflecting what is actually happening out there. I am just trying to get a sense on how it is managed and followed. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I am just trying to get a sense of... I thank Mr. Anderson for that answer. He led right into exactly where I wanted to go. What programs do we offer to mitigate? The

note I wrote down here to make sure I asked was, how do we manage, control or create efficiencies in the context of consumption, whether it is water, sanitation, heating, fuel and power rates, when by and large a lot of people are not actually paying those actual bills? How do we manage and monitor and create efficiencies in those particular areas? Thank you.

I guess as a general policy do the tenants pay the electrical power, the heating fuel or the water and sanitation bills? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Anderson cited we’ll call it the average of 500 kilowatts on the household. It’s been my understanding that that’s a normal kilowatt usage throughout the Territory, in the smaller communities that is. What does the department do to encourage people to use power efficiently? Has the Housing Corporation switched all the light bulbs from incandescent to the... Has the Housing Corporation switched the washing machines to high efficiency, have they changed the water things, things of that nature to help bring those costs down? By and large it sounds as if the tenant is responsible for six cents on a kilowatt, which is not very much. I mean, it sounds like about a $30 bill a month. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. In a lot of cases the LHOs have switched to the higher efficiency bulb and we’ve seen some of the difference in that, and as far as the appliances that we use in the units -- fridge, stove and the washer and dryer -- they’re usually responsible for. But having switched those out to higher efficiency models, I think we’re seeing a difference there. Also tenants are becoming more educated as to the more power they use, the more they have to pay. So they’re taking steps on their own. We have a communication plan and we try to work with the tenants to ensure that their power consumption is down. I think after the first few bills of leaving all the lights on and that, I think the message gets out there pretty quick and they take steps on their own.

So we’ve seen a real improvement in the power consumption of tenants. Thank you.

Thank you. I am pleased to hear the Minister’s comment there. I’m just trying to get a sense to if your power increases by 20 percent, so you’ve now added 100 additional kilowatts onto your monthly bill, and if you’re paying six cents per kilowatt as a tenant, you’re paying $6 extra that month, now what’s to motivate them and what does the Housing Corp do? I hear what the Minister is saying, that if they’re paying outrageous prices for power, they would be motivated to use less power, but if somebody increased their power consumption by 20 percent, it would only be $6. How would that be an alarm to the tenant? Thank you.

Mr. Chair, it’s only $6 to us, but to a lot of tenants out there that $6 is a lot of money because we have a lot of social housing clients. So it’s beneficial to them to keep their power consumption as low as possible. So we’re starting to see that. We do see some folks coming in with bills in the $30 to $40 range. Some may be a little higher, but after a while I think they realize that its beneficial to them to use as little power as possible, and a lot of them being social assistance clients, they don’t have the means to pay. So $6 is a lot of money to some of those folks. Thank you.

Thanks. I appreciate the Minister’s perspective on this particular subject. I’m having a difficult time understanding what the motivating factors are. I hear his point, it didn’t go past me, which is $6 is probably, in some cases, for some people six more dollars than they have. But that said, I mean, I’m just not hearing perhaps what the Housing Corporation does to monitor and manage. I mean, if somebody had an 800 kilowatt bill one month, I mean, what would the department do? By and large would they just pay it and, of course, the person would now pay $48 that month for a power bill, or do they speak to them? I mean, the example is built around just a point of saying what do we do to encourage people to take some ownership and six cents a kilowatt is not a way to take ownership.

In Yellowknife, I mean, you’re paying .24 cents and that’s by and large not the lowest, but it’s certainly pretty close to the bottom compared to other regions. So I can’t cite examples, since the system has changed a bit, but six cents per kilowatt just doesn’t seem like a motivating factor. I mean, what does the department do when they get a very high power bill? Do they just pay it and just say, oh well? Thank you.

The answer is we do pay it and the LHOs would work with the tenants. Public housing tenants as a rule use less power than a lot of private homeowners. So the $30 or $40, or the $6, it all depends on the amount of power that they use, but if the Member thinks that we just pay it and not talk to these folks, well, I

mean, that’s far from the truth. We do work closely with clients and if you notice a spike, I can’t speak for the LHOs, but if you notice a spike in power consumption, then you would have a discussion with those tenants, because it’s costing the tenants money too. So it’s something that we work closely with tenants on.

Every LHO knows how much they pay in power, how much power the tenants are using, because they get a power bill for every unit that they have. So it is one that’s monitored very closely, I can assure the Member.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. We’re on page 5-58, NWT Housing Corporation. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I just couldn’t let it go by. It’s not that I think the Housing Corp does nothing; it’s not that assumption at all. I’m just trying to buy into what’s the motivator here to ensure people are using power reasonably. I don’t want to say conservatively, I don’t want to make people live by one light bulb on the house and they all huddle around it to stay warm and to read. I’m not suggesting that at all. I’m just saying good and reasonable management and that’s what I’m asking. Has the department identified what is considered a normal level of consumption for the amount of people in a particular unit, whether they’re two people in a two-bedroom unit or four people in a three-bedroom unit, whatever the case may be? I mean, have they designed a factor of what’s considered reasonable power consumption and how do they encourage people to live by that? That’s the kind of thing I’m after in trying to get a sense of how and what that means. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.

My answer would be the same as it was before. We would communicate with these folks and we would talk to them. As far as the motivating factor, maybe the Member needs to go out and speak to some tenants of public housing and ask them what their motivating factor is, but I know as a corporation our motivating factor is to keep our costs down and work with the tenants and keep their costs down. Thank you.

Thank you, and I’m really careful in how I want to say this because I don’t want to sound as if I’m stereotyping people in these situations. So I’m trying to be very careful, but if somebody left their windows open and the heat on, the everyday person would be paying for that. What happens from a Housing Corporation or an LHO point of view to make sure that doesn’t happen. The average everyday person who leaves the lights on has to take ownership when they go to work, the kids go to school, those types of things. If they leave all the lights on, they have to accept that if they want to do that, light an empty house or

dwelling, they have to accept the realities that they’re paying for it. I know the Minister is answering and I know he can’t speak directly for the LHO by saying what they say, but I guess I’m just missing the component here of not hearing how they educate folks to encourage them to come back. I mean, has the Housing Corporation looked at designing an upper limit and attaching more responsibility, sort of a grading process? When he talks about taking responsibility for the extra kilowatt usage, has the Housing Corporation looked at that?

I think the days of tenants leaving windows open and heat on are pretty well long gone. Maybe in a few cases there are some. If the Member is suggesting we raise from six cents to 12 cents, then he can bring that forward and we would be more willing to entertain that.

What’s to stop the Housing Corporation from raising kilowatt usage from six cents to 12 cents?

It’s something that we’ve obviously had a look at and we have to consider the situation. A lot of tenants that we have out there in our public housing portfolio, I think tenants are taking some responsibility in keeping some of their costs down. If raising it to 12 cents will be an incentive to keep their costs down, then I suppose it’s something we’d have to have a look at and we’d need, obviously, the support of this Assembly.

Has the Housing Corporation developed any discussion papers or briefing notes to that effect? If they have, can they share it with committee members?

No, we haven’t. We’ve had some preliminary discussion. I’ve asked the corporation to put some numbers together for me, but we really don’t have anything formal put together yet.