Thank you, committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you could please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.

Welcome, witnesses. Mr. Abernethy, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record?

Thank you, Madam Chair. With me today are Kim Schofield, who is the director of finance, and Bronwyn Watters, the deputy minister with the Department of Justice.

Thank you. I will now open the floor to general comments. Any Members wish to make general comments? Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m just looking at your statements that were made. I know the community of Tsiigehtchic, for many years, has been pursuing the need for RCMP. I’m hoping within the next year here we can see the community constable position sort of geared towards communities that don’t have policing. I know it’s pretty well open to the whole Northwest Territories at this time, but I think we need to work with the communities that do not have police present in the communities. It’s quite clear that the communities want something in place to make the people feel safe. I feel that a community constable would be suitable. It’s possible to have something worked out where they’re working with the local bylaw. It’s something I’d like to see in the near future. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Blake. Next on my list, Mr. Nadli.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The comments are something that I’ve reiterated before and I think it’s worth just noting at this point. I don’t really have any other concerns but this point that I wanted to make. Of course, it’s regarding the pending legislation on what’s coming down from the federal government and its implication in terms of our capacity to house people that are incarcerated, and whether that’s going to put a constraint on our resources as it is. Are there going to be efforts, maybe down the road, to look at a joint initiative with the federal government, in terms of trying to access more resources, so that we don’t end up with additional costs that we can’t really afford? Incarceration rates are pretty high, especially for the Aboriginal population. I think it’s a safe fact that could be said for across Canada. That’s the only point that I wanted to make is that it’s going to be challenging and how the department deals with it. More likely there are some initiatives in the works and hopefully things will be absorbed with the department and at the same time maybe some possible joint initiatives with the federal government. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Opening comments. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister made some good comments in his opening presentation. I wanted to highlight a few that would seek more clarification as we go through the details.

The Minister talked about, in the second paragraph on page one of four, the programs and supporting the Assembly’s vision of a strong, independent people who are safe and secure in both communities and their homes. I wanted to raise the point here again, as I’ve been doing for the last nine years, similar to my colleague from the Mackenzie Delta, on RCMP in the communities. The Minister has heard the people of Colville Lake on this issue here and how do we keep people safe, how we give people a feeling of security in their communities. The Minister has talked about his willingness and his openness to go into Colville Lake to talk to people on looking at some alternatives to some sense of security in the community. It costs a lot of money to bring in RCMP, especially with the two-member detachment now. With the financial restraints that we have on this government, it’s highly unlikely that this will even make the cut because there are so many other needs out there. We’re open to some suggestions, and the Minister has agreed to work with the people in Colville Lake.

One of them is to look at a community-based safety program or something that would work maybe with the extra attention by the Fort Good Hope detachment to do some patrolling. Some other things like that. Colville also talked about the reintegration of their people coming back from the

facilities in Yellowknife or in Hay River and looking at a unique program where these inmates would come back to the community. They would not just go right into Colville Lake. They would go to an outpost camp or a bush camp where they would slowly reintegrate back into the community if they’ve been out for a long period of time. They go back in and they go back into learning what it’s like to go back into a community and learn some hard lessons of community wellness and respect for the community.

The Minister is a supporter of the on-the-land programs, and we know we want to do them. I look forward to seeing how we could get some of these programs looked at again in the Sahtu region. I know he talked to the people in Fort Good Hope and he’s actually asked them to sit down and talk with me, let’s look at some of these programs and see how we could work it out, so I’m hoping that some of this bureaucratic red tape can be softened up and work with the people on the needs of the people they serve.

As the Minister says in this paper, that they want to build a justice system, so it means being open not only to the western concept of justice but also to the Aboriginal point of view of justice. I hope that’s what he looks forward to when he says the needs of the people they serve. The people that he mostly serves in the Sahtu are Aboriginal people, so we have different needs and sometimes it’s very difficult to explain. But I think the Minister got a sense of what we’re talking about in that sense.

The Minister, under this 10 year, on page 2 of 4 is the justice, 10 years to teach a plan, plan the outline, three broad strategic directions for future and they include improving the justice system response to crime. I wanted to look at that. I’m not too sure if that has to do with something with the federal government’s recent crime bill that is going to have significant impact on the Northwest Territories. Our funding is very, very sensitive right now because there are so many needs and we want to get our projects on the books, we want to get them on the go, and yet we have some more that are still waiting in line to be approved by this Assembly.

I heard in the news that the impact of Bill C-10 is significant. If we were ever to get the federal government to say, well, this is what you shall do, it’s going to cost us dollars, a significant amount of dollars. Sometimes we may need to kiss some of our projects goodbye or put them on hold. I want to ask the Minister, in his statement, one line, improving the justice system response to crime, shouldn’t our justice system respond to prevention. Maybe he could give some clarification on that. I’d appreciate that.

I look forward to the Minister talk about partners and stakeholders. What does he mean by partners?

Who are the partners? Who are the stakeholders? Where do we need to work (inaudible) and get some clarification on that?

The Minister talked about the legal aid and I’d like to see the access to justice including legal aid, the courts or the alternatives. My question is on the access. It’s the quality of access for our people, because we only have sometimes one lawyer travelling the court circuit and they go into a community and they have the on-the-fly, sort of like McDonald’s style, justice system. Go in and do it fast. You know, you get served fast and it doesn’t serve anybody any justice. We have, sort of, I call it the McDonald’s model of justice. You go in there and you serve a lot of people quick and in a short time and then you leave. People are complaining that they only have five minutes with their lawyer and either they’re going to go a plea they don’t agree to or you just don’t have the time.

Even with the child custody situations, the justice, with our Health department and our Justice here, a lot of parents are saying that the access to the justice is not correct because sometimes they have to do a conference call over the phone with the court, and that’s not good access. You know, the lines go down, sometimes the connections are not there. Sometimes on rulings they’re not in favour to a family.

I really want to look at the quality of the access for the people within our justice system. I know that’s going to be a monumental task just to get the proper access, because our communities are far apart and we don’t have much support because of the budget we are operating under, but it seems like it is really tough for people to get good quality access to legal aid, justice or even to the courts.

A lot of us fly in, even Colville Lake. People are complaining that they have to fly to Good Hope to go to court. On top of that, to add insult to injury, they have to pay for their own ticket and they have to pay it back. If they don’t pay for a ticket to attend court, they get charged for… I don’t know what the charge is, but pretty soon the RCMP is out looking for them. Colville Lake is really complaining about that. That is not fair. The cost of living is high but when you break the law, there are consequences. That is just alleged. It doesn’t mean they are guilty; until they go to court, then they are found guilty. That is the assumption. People in Colville Lake have been telling me that they are ready to look at this issue to see if the justice system could actually have the court system going to Colville Lake. Maybe somewhere in Justice they could cut some funding so that they can have the service.

I am asking the Minister for this. I am not too sure what he is going to say, but that is what we are looking for: access to good quality justice in our community. I thank the Minister for his visit to the Sahtu and I’m glad that we had a good time visiting

people there. Those are my comments, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Next on my list is Mr. Dolynny.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister and the delegation here today. I was very impressed that we have a new RCMP position that deals with family violence as a coordinator. Knowing full well that spousal violence in the NWT is almost 10 times the national average and 85 percent of those, women are usually the victim, so it is nice to see that happening. We will be looking forward to seeing the fruits of that newly installed position. I do caution the Minister, though, that we need to make sure to move forward with this new position, that we get the proper measuring tools and communication platform that Regular Members as well as, I am sure, the general public would be able to follow up with that newly created position. I do applaud the Minister and the department for coming up with that.

In your opening address you talked about all residents should have access to justice, including legal aid. I just want to spend a little time here talking about legal aid. When we get into the budget line, we may want to question that. It’s unchanged this year. I do have some concerns. Normally I am one of those Members who will actually tell you to maybe take things out of the budget to save money. It’s rare that I will say now maybe it is time to look at putting money into something to make program services better.

Applications for legal aid rose 14 percent from 2009 to 2011. Applications for legal aid have increased 60 percent since the beginning of this millennium of 2000-2001. When you see a flood budget, it does raise suspicions. Are we catering to the need for legal aid with case backlog as high as four months? I think all Members here are sometimes a bit concerned. Are we really serving the needs of people who can access legal aid? Are we modernizing legal aid enough? Are we making it cost effective? With a flood budget, it just is not compelling enough to know we are addressing those issues.

The courts themselves, from a physical layout perspective, anyone who has gone in and seen the operation in action, there definitely needs to be upgrades from the telecommunication or videoconferencing point of view. I believe that the budget is potentially lacking in that. Again, this is more of a physical opportunity to improve services by modernizing videoconferencing. It has been in the budget for a number of years now. I am still surprised to see that we are not focusing more time and attention in that area. The investment that we require to bring our physical layout of the courts up to par, I think it might be slightly overlooked.

On the aspect of the court system themselves, you talked in your opening address about families who need help on working through separation and divorce. It’s no denial to anyone that the divorce rate is relatively high, not only in the Territories but as well as in Canada or the world, for that matter. Parents need help and parents need support to work around the child. I know you created a child service lawyer in the last 16th Assembly which is a

good initiative, but I know the Minister and myself and some other Members have talked about the concept of equal parenting. This is something that I know has been brought up in the House a couple of times. I would be remiss if I didn’t say that this is something potentially that could be looked at piloting to look at aiding all parents through the parenting process during a very difficult time in the family so that all parents can have the ability to see their kids.

Next on my list, having had the ability to tour some of the correction facilities and looking at the lack of alcohol treatment, alcohol is prevalent. It is probably the most prevalent drug in the community as well as in the Northwest Territories, for that matter. Offenders most likely in a lot of cases are trying to wean themselves off alcohol. We find that, and this is coming a lot from the Social Programs committee, that alcohol treatment needs to be a more program response in our dealings with inmates. We would like to see the department focus more time and attention on such programming and developing models of success that can be implemented in all of our facilities and correction facilities in the Northwest Territories.

Finally, the issue again, not mentioned in the opening address, is the issue of those who do reoffend. The issue of reoffending is very high in the Territories. I don’t have the statistics. I’m sure the Minister has more access to those types of numbers. Reoffenders are the ones in which sometimes the result of the system not providing enough corrective measures through either community justice, through corrections or through diversion courts. We have a very hard time as a government measuring how we deal with reoffenders. We need those measurables to make sure that we are keeping the pulse and making sure that our corrective behaviour for dealing with these reoffenders are being dealt with. Currently, as I said, in your opening address and even in the budget, you don’t see a lot of areas where we can make improvements for reoffenders and help with the family violence and probably some of the hard crimes that deal with reoffending.

Madam Chair, that’s all the opening comments that I have for today. I will have probably some more as we open up into detail. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Opening comments. I go now to Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I realize the department has a lot of work to do in the area of dealing with those who commit crime and deal both on the corrections side and the rehab side and working with communities, youth justice and so on. I am wondering if I can get the Minister to talk a little bit about the preventative role that the department plays in how they play that beyond the Youth Justice Committee and community justice committees. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Further opening comments, Mr. Moses.

Thank you, Madam Chair. There are some areas of concern obviously with the omnibus crime bill coming down, the path in front of us and the Minister tabling the effects of that bill of the NWT, we are going to see an increase in a lot of areas. Nothing was addressed in these main estimates, but hopefully in the next business planning session, budget session, we’ll get to look at those.

I think not only is it a concern for us, but on the news lately it’s a concern for the Government of Nunavut because they have an MOU where they have 20 spaces in our facilities. Whether or not the Minister will look into getting into another MOU with the Government of Nunavut for those spaces, knowing that we might be needing them in the years to come. With that said, it would possibly save us money rather than sending some of our clients down south for the same type of services they would get up here. That’s one concern.

Like Mr. Bromley, I wanted to get more information on the prevention side of things as well as something we discussed previously and that’s mental health court and his stance on that and where we can go with that, whether it’s something this government wants to proceed with and the commitment he has from his department as well as other departments that are associated with such a course of action.

Of course, legal aid services are being exhausted with the crime bill coming down. I feel it’s going to get even higher. In some cases the communities having legal aid services fly into the communities, it does put a strain not only on the system, but also for the person in question who might be incarcerated to get them moved through the system a lot faster. That just takes me to people who go into remand until they do get their court hearings and ensuring that it’s cost effective to get them in the court system, through their cases when it’s supposed to go through, it would be cost-savings to this government. I’ve had constituents come up to me and tell me about some of the deficiencies associated with this department and how much

money is being spent when if things were done right away, it would have saved thousands of dollars.

All other comments were pretty well addressed by my other colleagues here today. Obviously, with this omnibus crime bill coming down, it’s going to really affect our justice system and I think we have to start preparing for that sooner or later.

On the positive side, I was really pleased to see that later this week there’s going to be a tabling of a 10-year strategic plan. So I know it’s looking into the future to decrease our costs, not only within two years, four years, but it’s a 10-year plan. I am really glad to see that. It really gives direction to the government, to the department, over the next 10 years.

The family violence worker, it is one position and if it’s being utilized throughout the Northwest Territories, that is a position that might get exhausted, considering all the cases that person would be encountering, as well as the children’s lawyer’s office is something that is very positive and taking it to the right direction.

The socio-economic pressures that are contributing to the crime rates are something possibly the department should work with. If the appropriate department, whoever is negotiating our socio-economic agreements with the industries, the mining companies, the oil and gas companies, should try to get a better contribution from these industries whose impact is both positive and negative in the communities. I think we’ve got to get a better deal out of that so our government isn’t footing the bill of the work that’s being done in some of our regions.

Other than that, I’ll have more questions in detail. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Moses. I’ll go now to Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just want to reiterate my colleagues from the smaller communities who are certainly supportive of policing the smaller communities. I know initiatives of getting safety officers into the community of Wrigley have been supported by this government and I look forward to continued support of maintaining those positions in Fort Simpson.

I did speak with the Minister earlier this year about a continuation of plan to have a full operating detachment in Wrigley. It’s interesting. I spoke in the House earlier about how I raised the issue of getting RCMP policing into Wrigley. It was all because I was trying to get nursing into Wrigley. I did get the police, but I never did get the nurses. That’s another initiative that I will continue to pursue in this House.

I think part of the strategy is getting that detachment. I spoke to the Minister about funding the detachment and now there was a recent agreement. The Minister indicates funding of the detachment will be I don’t know what percentage the burden of our GNWT in developing the detachment there. I know they’re quite expensive, but the federal plan was talking about portable detachments that we can use to house RCMP officers, as well as room for cells. I don’t know if the Minister has looked at that yet, has planned to engage with his federal counterparts in getting an actual floor plan of that detachment unit and the cost of it. I’d certainly like to pursue it in the upcoming capital plan and the long-term capital plan as well. As long as we are moving forward, it is the wish of the community of Wrigley to see a return of a nurse and it’s a bonus that the RCMP are there. With that, those are my opening comments, Madam Chair. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Are there any further opening comments? Does committee agree we go into detail?

Yes, we will first let the Minister respond. Mr. Minister, would you care to respond to the opening comments you’ve heard?

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will go through the notes that I’ve heard from my colleagues. A number of my colleagues repeated similar things, so I’ll try to lump them into groups and then I’ll talk about some of them individually.

One of the things that came up a number of times is obviously Bill C-10. That’s something we are hearing a lot about right now and we have just completed the review, which has been shared with Members and has been tabled in the House. That report clearly shows there’s going to be what equates to about an 11-person increase in our male facilities.

We are concerned. We are planning around that, but we know that we have some space to last some time to help us plan our way through this. We do have opportunities within the facilities to double up to some degree, so we’ll manage within. At the same time, we’re going to look for opportunities to find ways to get low-risk offenders into alternatives, other methods of incarceration, which may include wilderness camps and those types of things. That’s part of the partnership stuff we were talking about or Mr. Yakeleya was talking about.

In the past we’ve done wilderness camps. When I was in Fort Good Hope, I had an opportunity to meet with the residents of Fort Good Hope who indicated they’d really like to get back into the world of doing these camps. We’re very interested in it.

We have to work with the community. We’ve indicated that we want to work. In fact, we’ve already begun that relationship, if you will, and we will find a way. But we do have to make sure we meet certain security standards.

The next option for us in the facilities is obviously to look at possibly sending inmates to other jurisdictions or stop accepting inmates from other jurisdictions. Now, I did have a conversation with the Minister of Justice yesterday and we talked about the challenges we expect we will face. Right now you will notice there’s no increased money in the budget because, quite frankly, it isn’t going to hit us this fiscal year. We don’t see that. The bill isn’t even going to come into full effect this year, so we have some planning time. But given that it’s 11, given that we are projecting 11 worst-case scenarios, which will grow over time, we don’t actually see having to end a relationship with Nunavut at this point. We believe we will be able to take both Nunavut inmates and federal inmates over an extended period of time as long as we manage and plan accordingly and, once again, finding ways to get some of the low-risk offenders into alternatives.

So there’s work to be done. It’s not going to be easy, but we know with a little bit of focus and a little determination, we can get it done.

Bill C-10 does put on some long-term pressures and one of the things that we’re very interested in pursuing is diversions. Whether that’s at the front end with the RCMP or in the court system or with our community justice committees, there are opportunities and we continue to pursue those. Yes, Bill C-10 is going to be a challenge but we think we have a good grasp of what’s coming. There will be some surprises because we don’t know how the judges are necessarily going to interpret every piece of legislation, but we’ve done a pretty good analysis that’s been shared with you and we’re looking forward to continuing to work on that.

A number of the Members talked about RCMP, in particular in small communities. We fully recognize the challenge that we have there. I personally have had an opportunity to get out to a couple of the small communities, Colville Lake and Tsiigehtchic, to talk with the people in the communities about creative solutions. In all those trips I did go with the commanding officer of “G” Division, who has agreed and will be working with the communities to try and find those creative solutions. There were a number of ideas that came up in Tsiigehtchic that the RCMP is pursuing. In Colville Lake we had a number of good conversations and Wade Blake, the commanding officer, did spend some time with the chief and council in Colville Lake to start talking about those opportunities.

Mr. Menicoche’s situation is a little bit different given that Wrigley, the community he identified, does have a detachment, it just doesn’t have an on-site detachment. It has the staff compliment but it lacks a building or infrastructure. Infrastructure is now a responsibility of the Government of the Northwest Territories for RCMP infrastructure, 70 percent of the cost and 70 percent of the build, which is a slightly new relationship. Some money was built into the contract to cover some of the builds, but we have some priority areas and things that are kind of falling down, like the Inuvik detachment, that need to be dealt with right away. We need, and I need, to go to places like Wrigley and I am committing to go to Wrigley with the commanding officer to talk about some interim measures, some creative solutions to help make sure that Wrigley has policing coverage that they’re happy with and satisfied with until such a time as we can take that larger step down the road. Work is required there.

With respect to Legal Aid, I think we’ve even done first and second reading. Have we not done first and second reading of the Legal Aid Act? Okay. We will be doing first and second reading of the Legal Aid bill, which is basically a new Legal Aid Act, very shortly. That act will be coming to you, the Regular Members, to do a comprehensive review. We know that there’s a lot of people interested. This is a great opportunity for all of us to work together to get this Legal Aid Act right, so that we can meet the needs of our residents. We’ve all heard problems and concerns. I travelled with social programming in the last government where we reviewed the Child and Family Services Act and we heard a lot of concerns about the Legal Aid Act. So this is our opportunity to dig in and get it right. That’s not going to address everything. Workload and backlog is something that we heard an awful lot about. In fact, I have had that discussion with committee and as a result of that discussion and important work with the committee, we will be putting forward a supp to create or increase the legal aid division by one position, once this particular budget is concluded. So we are adding a position, assuming it will get through this process. I’m both hopeful and optimistic that it will.

Mr. Yakeleya talked about strong, independent people in Colville Lake. Some creative things are happening. This is the type of thing that we’re talking about when it comes to partners and stakeholders. They’ve approached us and asked us about opportunities to do things like reintegration programs, inmates who have been in the facilities – whether it’s federal, territorial, or whatnot – for a long time and come back to the communities. One of the residents of the community talked about how long or how difficult it is for them to reintegrate when they come back and they’re kind of lost. They’ve approached us with some options. We’re

very excited. We don’t fully know what it means yet, but we’re approaching with open ears and open minds to see if we can find something that works out for both.

On the Land Program I already touched a little bit. We are looking to continue to do those types of things and Fort Good Hope has expressed a desire.

The one issue that Mr. Yakeleya brought up which is a little bit more complicated, is the travel long distance for court. From time to time, depending on whether juries are required or whatnot, this is a requirement from time to time. Obviously, we want to try to get into communities as much as we can. We can’t get into every community. If an inmate comes from Colville Lake and they’re set for a trial in Fort Good Hope and we have to bring them out, it’s my understanding that they shouldn’t have to pay, that we would cover those costs. I did hear people say that they did have to pay when we were there, and I need to work with Mr. Yakeleya and my department to figure out what was the situation there. Was it an oddball sort of situation or was it the norm, because they shouldn’t have to pay when we have to bring them out for trial. I will commit to looking at that for Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Dolynny talked about the family violence RCMP officer. This is something we’re excited about. It is actually a position in the RCMP. It isn’t in the Department of Justice. We have a new relationship with them as a result of the contract. We have a little bit more cooperation, for lack of a better word, on setting some direction. We don’t tell them how to be RCMP but we talk about the types of services. This is a position we’re excited about. I want to know about it. I want to keep informed about it. I will make sure that Members are informed and up to date on this one as well.

Courts. If you go to the Yellowknife courthouse, as an example, we actually have a downstairs courtroom that actually is fully set up with videoconferencing and that technology and we are trying to push out of Yellowknife to create opportunities to create some efficiencies, so you’re bang on correct. This is something that continues to need work, but it is something that we have been working on and we are going to continue working on it.

Corrections. We do have treatment programs in pretty much every facility that we have. They differ depending on the type of facility that we do have. By way of example, the youth facility that we have here in Yellowknife has a fantastic program called Healing and Learning Together, the HALT program, which we just managed to obtain some additional federal money so that that program can continue to live and continue to be delivered over time. It’s a great program. I will be talking about it in more detail in a Minister’s statement in the next couple of days. It’s a good, good program. We do provide

programming. There are obviously shortfalls. Everybody can probably identify where they think there needs to be some more.

We have had some discussions with committee over the last couple of weeks, and it was identified or suggested that we needed to put a little more attention on some programs at SMCC. We are coming forward with a supp on that for $250,000 this year and $339,000 ongoing so that we can enhance that particular program in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. We’re excited about that. Obviously, we hope that goes through the Assembly and passes.

Can we do more? Of course we can. We always can. Money is always a challenge. We need to set some priorities. We want to make sure that we’re providing quality rehabilitation to the inmates because, as Mr. Dolynny said, we want to fight against recidivism. I believe we have some statistics that give us a little bit of the recidivism sort of statistics over time, and I will look for that and I will share that with the Members when we do get that.

Mr. Bromley talked about prevention and our prevention role is also partially a partnership. A number of the things related to prevention that have to happen are going to have to happen in other departments like Health and Social Services. We are an active partner trying to find some solutions, but there are some important things that we do. You can’t knock the value of the community justice committees when it comes to prevention. They play an incredible awareness role and I’ve had an opportunity to get out and meet some of these people and talk about the types of things that they’re doing. Quite frankly, it’s amazing some of the things that they’re doing. We would like to continue to work with them. We would like to continue to enhance their role. We would like to give them more opportunities to do diversion with both youth and adults, where appropriate. It’s exciting and we want to grow that so it’s even more effective than it is.

There are some other things like our Not Us campaign which we’re very proud of. It’s a program that we actually give the money to the community and they decide how they’re going to spend it. They design their own programs that suit their needs and meet their styles. We’re excited about that and we’ll keep working on that and keep getting that money out there so that lots of individuals can take advantage of it.

I’ve already talked about Bill C-10. I believe I’ve touched on legal aid. I’ve addressed, I hope, some of the concerns about the RCMP. I really look forward to getting out to the small communities with the RCMP, with the commanding officer to talk about some solutions, some interim measures. I think I got everything.

The one thing that I’ve left here now, let’s go back on, is divorce. Divorce is very challenging to people who happen to be living through it. We’ve actually put in a program of mediation which is actually quite good. When you’ve got two healthy parents that are both healthy, well, and capable of providing support and love to their child in a safe manner, they can utilize these programs.

We’ve had really fantastic success with this Mediation Program. There have been a lot of people talking about equal parenting. I see why some people talk about equal parenting but I do have my concerns about equal parenting because, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many, many people and research, we always have to err on the side of safety of the child. In many situations it’s possible that a child will get positive benefits from equal access to both parents, assuming that both parents are healthy, well adjusted, and aren’t a danger to the child. If we were to change to presumption of assessment to equal and shared parenting, we would actually be putting our children in danger, because the presumption of equal and shared parenting would override the condition of safe child. That has to be paramount. The safety of the child has to be paramount above everything.

We will continue to work with parents to find opportunities to give them access, shared access to children when they’re both healthy and safe and the safety of the child is absolutely paramount. I hear what the Member is saying. We have a slight disagreement even though I do understand the value of equal and shared parenting when both parents are healthy. Assuming that we don’t get rid of the presumption of child safety.

That’s it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Committee, we are on section 9. Page 9-7 is the department summary. We will defer that until we are done with detail. Does the committee agree?

Thank you. We will move to page 9-8, Justice, department summary, information item, infrastructure investment summary.