Committee Motion 3-19(2): Tabled Document 30-19(2): Main Estimates 2020-2021 - Justice - Deferral of Further Consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice, Carried

In the Legislative Assembly on March 3rd, 2020. See this topic in context.

Committee Motion 3-19(2): Tabled Document 30-19(2): Main Estimates 2020-2021 - Justice - Deferral of Further Consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice, Carried
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Mahsi cho, Madam Chair. I move that this committee defer further consideration of the estimates for the Department of Justice at this time. Mahsi cho, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. Norn. I see the motion is being distributed. Is there any discussion on this motion? Seeing none, can we vote on this motion? All those in favour, please indicate on the motion to defer further consideration of the estimates for the Department of Justice. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

We will defer further consideration of the Department of Justice. We will now turn to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Does the Minister have any opening remarks?

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Yes, I do, Madam Chair, thank you. I am here to present the 2020-2021 Main Estimates for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Overall, the department's estimates propose an increase of $8.858 million, or 2.7 percent, over the 2019-2020 Main Estimates. These estimates support our fiscal objectives to prioritize responsible and strategic spending while matching the modest expected revenue growth over the coming year.

The increase is primarily related to forced growth funding. The proposed estimates reflect:

$5.866 million for collective bargaining increases in the department, Aurora College, and education bodies;
$2.033 million to address increased demand on the Income Security Program;
$269,000 to provide for an adjustment to the funding provided to education bodies for student transportation; and
$129,000 for a new time-limited position to address the increased volume of requests from the public for day school student records.

The proposed estimates also reflect a total increase of $1.052 million to continue initiatives approved in prior years. This amount is comprised of:

$604,000 for the expansion of the Northern Distance Learning program into 20 communities in 2020-2021;
$319,000 for the continued implementation of a Territorial Student Support Team that provides specialized health and mental health supports and guidance for school staff programming for students with complex needs; and
$129,000 for the continued development of a grade 11 and grade 12 Northern Studies curriculum.

The increase is slightly offset by a decrease of $636,000 in total to reflect funding scheduled to sunset on March 31, 2020. The sunsets reflect year-over-year changes in departmental activities under both the Canada-NWT Workforce Development Agreement and the Canada-NWT Early Learning and Child Care Agreement; the ending of time-limited funding to assist education bodies to implement safe school plans; and the year-over-year changes in departmental activities of the Skills 4 Success territorial support team.

These estimates continue to support the priorities of the 19^th Legislative Assembly by:

increasing student outcomes by providing students with access to high-quality education and supports, regardless of the community they live in or the size of their school;
increasing employment in small communities through strategic partnership with federal and Indigenous governments;
advancing universal childcare by working with the federal government and childcare operators to increase availability and reduce the costs of childcare in all our communities; and
working toward the creation of a polytechnic university by continuing engagement with Indigenous governments, communities, industry, and other key stakeholder to inform wide-ranging improvements to Aurora College's governance, programs, and students supports.

That concludes my opening remarks. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Do you have any witnesses you wish to bring into the House?

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Yes, I do.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Would the Minister please introduce his witnesses.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. To my left is Ms. Rita Mueller, the deputy minister of the department; on my right is Mr. Sam Shannon, assistant deputy minister of Corporate Services; on my far right is Mr. John MacDonald, the assistant deputy minister of Education and Culture; and, not sitting with us right now but waiting in the witness room for his time to shine, is Mike Saturnino, the assistant deputy minister of Income Security and Advanced Education, who I will, with your permission, call upon at the appropriate time. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Members, we will now turn to the main estimates document, and I will open the floor to general comments on this department, Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Are there any general comments on this department's budget? Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I guess just a general comment that might not be expected, but I will say, just for the record, that, compared to some of the other increases that budget saw, it was somewhat disappointing that the education department saw the lowest percent increase. I know that a lot of the increase was due to forced growth, but there was some addition of increases across departments, and it would have been nice to have seen that reflected instead in the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, especially with our interest in increasing trades and increasing graduation rates across the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister, would you like to respond?

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, and thank you to the Member for the comment. With such a large department, with such a large budget, an increase that would be a large percentage in another department might not show up as such a large increase here, but I appreciate the Member's support for education and advancing the priorities of the Assembly. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Any further general comments on ECE? Seeing none, we will now move into the detail. We will go back to the main page, and we will pick up at the first of the key activities, corporate management. Are there Members who would like to comment on corporate management key activity for ECE? Are there any comments on corporate management of ECE? Seeing none, I'm going to call the page. Education, Culture and Employment, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, total, $10,059,000. Does committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, committee. Let's now turn to page 35, corporate activity, culture, heritage and languages. Program detail begins on page 36. Are there any questions on the corporate activity, culture, heritage and languages? Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm just wondering if the Minister or staff can tell us about the feasibility study to retrofit the museum. What is the status of that work, and is there a plan to actually retrofit the museum? I know we're talking about the O and M budget, but I think this feasibility study was partly funded out of the O and M budget last year. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, and I appreciate the Member bringing this up. I know he has always been a strong advocate for the museum and all it does. As many of the Members know, the museum is getting on in age right now. I did a tour of there not long ago. There are sections of it where there are dehumidifiers that have to be emptied nightly by security guards. The space is an issue. The Prince of Wales Heritage Centre serves a central agency function for the GNWT, storing many of its archives, so we have a lot to store. In addition to all of the cultural treasures that we have in the territory, there are just a lot of documents, and space has become an issue.

As to the feasibility study, I know that is a capital issue, but perhaps I could have my assistant deputy minister, Mr. MacDonald, elaborate on where we are with that.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Mr. MacDonald.

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Macdonald

Thank you, Madam Chair. At this point in time, ECE has completed the functional program assessment of the facility, and we are looking at different alternatives for what the new facility would look like. We are hoping to have a schematic design as well as class D estimates in place by April 2020, this spring, and present that to our Minister for discussion and for some direction for us to proceed after that. Thank you, Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair, and thanks to the Minister and his staff for that information. Can the Minister commit to sharing that study with the standing committee, and options that the department might come up with, before they go to Cabinet for a final decision? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Yes, that can be shared with standing committee. I think it likely has to be shared with the Cabinet, but not for decision, prior to going to standing committee, but I have no problem doing that. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, I really appreciate that. I guess one of the things that is sort of in the back of my mind is the fact that we don't have a territorial visitors' centre. If anybody has been to Whitehorse, they actually have a spectacular one that is right in their downtown area, and it does serve the interests of the whole Yukon. Is there some thought being put into, perhaps, different partnerships or co-uses or however we may want to frame it, in terms of other government needs, given sort of the central location and the function that the museum has played over the years in terms of tourism and so on? Can the Minister tell us whether those sorts of possibilities are being looked at? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. Anything is possible, but for details on what sort of discussions have happened, I will turn it over to my deputy minister, who is well versed in that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Mr. MacDonald.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Sorry, my deputy minister, Ms. Mueller.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Member knows, right now our museum is very well visited over the year. Many, many tourists, many of our NWT residents have pleasure in going into that beautiful facility, but, when looking at the future, there is a lot of possibility to even create more spaces, in a variety of ways, that would be open to the public and also to specialized groups, arts groups and so on, so that is being discussed. Primarily, though, a lot of the work that has been done to date is really looking at the functions and the requirements that we have for archives and for the collections that we have and ensuring that we have the proper air systems and so on, so that is really an important feature of our discussion to date. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, I guess the other thing that is sort of bubbling away in the back of my mind, too, is that, with a polytechnic university on the horizon, Yellowknife does need a real campus and that it would be great to be able to combine maybe the sort of things that could and should happen in a polytechnic with some of the things that do happen at the museum, as well. Because there is certainly a lot of interest in language revitalization, and the museum and some of the staff there do take strong roles with that, given the artifacts and some of the heritage items there and so on. I hope that is something else that the department will consider, is links with a potential polytechnic university. Is that something I can get some comment on? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The Member was talking about synergies between a polytechnic university and the museum. I haven't really put much thought into that, but I think that would be an avenue, perhaps, to pursue, especially in terms of capital funding. You know, the federal government or other entities might be more open to supporting a museum project if it does have that association, given that there is also a research component, as well. The territorial archeologist is in that facility, as well.

I just want to temper everyone's expectations here, that this would not be a cheap build. We have a lot of needs in the territory, and a building of this magnitude, that has to be built to these specifications, would be quite expensive, so I am not saying that this was going to happen anytime soon, even though something has to happen soon, but I just want to let the Members know that this is not a done deal and that it's going to be a large, large expense if it happens. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, and I take what the Minister says, that there are some very specialized requirements for a museum. There is also a great example in Whitehorse where Yukon archives are co-located with the Yukon College. They have an arts centre there. It's a wonderful kind of facility. It's a little bit out of the downtown area, but I think there is another example of how we can do things. I just want to move on to one other question, and that is the name of this facility, the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre. Is that something that we might look at, you know, finding a better name for, something that reflects our culture here more appropriately? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. That, it seems like it would be a simple fix, but for some of the details on this, with your indulgence, I would like to hand it over to Mr. MacDonald.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Mr. MacDonald.

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Macdonald

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is definitely an interesting question in terms of protocol. One of the things that we have wanted to look into is whether a name change for the facility would trigger any issues with His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, other issues such as that, so, from a protocol perspective, we are still in the research stage, to try to understand what that would entail and who to actually speak to. However, we are hoping to wait until after there is a bit more clarity on the planning study, itself, before we really dive into some of those questions. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Do you have any further questions, Member for Frame Lake?

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair, no, other than I appreciate the information that has been provided by the staff. They know that I am a strong supporter of the facility and the functions that it performs, and I look forward to the next phase of the life of that particular institution. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just looking at the operations expenditure summary, looking at the 2018 actuals, and there is a decrease to now, the mains, of about $480,000 for the Indigenous languages and education secretariat. Would the Minister be able to explain that decrease in the last couple of years? Mahsi cho.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Just one moment if you don't mind, Madam Chair? My apologies.

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The Chair Julie Green

Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. That relates to the grants that go out through that particular division, and there were actually more applications and more money out the door than was budgeted for, and so it's not a decrease in budget. The budget remained the same, but we actually spent more than we budgeted for in the year the Member is referencing. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the response from the Minister. That's good that that's the case. Just moving along here, I'm looking at one other line here that kind of caught my eye. There's also a variance here from the 2018-2019 actuals, and the mains for this year for fees and payments, and 2018-2019 was $795,000, and now, this year, it's $371,000. Can the Minister explain the difference in that line is about? Mahsi cho.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. That's actually related to the overpayments referenced earlier by the Member, so the additional $500,000 that went out the door with the Indigenous language and education secretariat, that's reflected in that same number right there, as well as the changes in the other program detail lines.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the response from the Minister. I have nothing further.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you. Are there further questions on this section? Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I had to Google, just so everyone is aware. Charles is the Prince of Wales. I didn't actually know that. I would be very happy if we changed the name of that. Talking about the Crown is one of my favourite topics. Madam Chair, my question is, I really think and need to emphasize that our museum is for the entire territory, and we have some of the most unique, cultural history in the world here, and our museum's job is essential to preserving that. I wanted to speak briefly about revenues.

I love the museum. Increasingly, it has more and more tourists going through it, and I want to emphasize that I think it should always be free for the Northwest Territories residents. I look at all the tourists who go in there, and it's completely free, and I wonder why we're not making some money off of that, and perhaps it could be in a revolving fund or something. My question is: has there ever been any consideration about charging those tourists to access the museum?

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Currently, the museum is free for everyone. It's by donation. I am sure many people, if not most people, don't donate anything, but as far as the history of those discussions, if you don't mind, I can hand it over to my deputy minister, Ms. Mueller.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we have discussed, for a number of years now, the pros and cons of having a fee for outside NWT residents, and to date, the discussion has always been that it's a place where people can really learn about our territory, about the people, and the culture. To date, the feeling has been that donations give people an opportunity, if they wish to, donate what they can. They can, and if not, they can still come and enjoy without having a fee. The reason for that is, a fee often does present barriers for certain individuals or families from coming in and participating in the activities as much as they want. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm happy to hear those conversations we're having. I think I'm kind of on the side that we should be charging. Can I get a sense, do we know what the donation total is on an annual basis?

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I'd like to hand it back to Ms. Mueller.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Madam Chair. It does fluctuate, but more and more, each year, we have more visitors going through the museum, and on average, it's around $10,000 or $11,000 that we do receive in donations, and we put that money back into our education programming. That's how we use those funds. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is an issue I will look into further and have further conversations with whether we can either increase that donation amount or look what other museums are doing. I wanted to move onto the line item $6,285,000 for Indigenous languages. Can I just confirm that this is all GNWT funding, or is this also federal funding in there?

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Could the Member please clarify which page he's on?

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The Chair Julie Green

Page 37.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

If you don't mind, I'd like to hand it over to Mr. MacDonald.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Mr. MacDonald.

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Macdonald

Thank you, Madam Chair. If the Member wouldn't mind, just pointing me to that line item again? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at the funding for Indigenous languages, $6,285,000. I believe this is largely flow through money to Indigenous governments to run their programming. I know there's been a number of federal increases to Indigenous languages programming. I'm just wondering if this is all GNWT money or this includes the federal funding that exists for Indigenous languages.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Mr. MacDonald.

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Macdonald

Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe this is the territorial funding. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm glad to see we're spending $6,285,000 on Indigenous languages. I believe Mr. Norn already asked some questions about how this was oversubscribed one year. I know there's more and more federal money on the table, and I believe every time we invest in this, it allows our Indigenous governments to leverage that additional funding for Indigenous languages. I guess my question to the Minister is: are there any plans to increase this amount?

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The funding is provided by the federal government, pursuant to an agreement that is ending this month, actually, I guess, March 31, 2020. Initial discussions from what we can tell, it looks like there will likely be a one-year extension of the status quo. After that, or during that time, we will enter into negotiations. We will be looking for more money, obviously. We always do. We still have to figure out what the feds want to do. With the reorganization of federal departments, we're not quite sure what their direction is going to be. What they might like to do is fund directly to the Indigenous governments and not flow through the government, so that's an option as well. We're still in the very early stages of this. The bottom line is that we would like more money for Indigenous languages. I always appreciate it when the Members bring up this topic and discuss it because I think it's vital to so many people in the territory, and something that we need to focus on sooner than later. Thank you

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Further questions? Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate those comments, and the standing committee will be taking out the Official Languages Act, so I look forward to continued conversations. I, ultimately, believe that we don't necessarily need to be the flow through. If the feds are willing to fund the Indigenous governments directly, that's great.

I wanted to switch gears here and talk about the line items. Arts, organizations and operations funding and the NWT arts council. There's a number of fundings for arts here. Just, generally, do we have a sense for every dollar we invest in the arts, what the return on investment is?

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Currently, we do not, and I can't speak for ITI because ITI is also involved in the arts, but that is something that we are looking at with ITI in the development of the new arts strategy. That's something I've always been critical of myself. I appreciate art. I appreciate artists. If we're doing it as an investment in the economy, are we getting a good bang for our buck? We're doing that work to find out. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate it, and I look forward to seeing that. I believe it is quite a high return on investment, especially up here, once again, if you get an artist to meet certain qualifications, they can go access Canadian Council for the Arts funding.

I just want to get a sense of how much of this arts funding is for artists in communities, because I believe that's really the market we need to look to develop.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I don't have a breakdown in front of me of the distribution of these funds, but that's definitely something we can get to Member. We might be able to get it by the end of the day. I know we have people watching and working furiously and sending us emails. We can get that done, and hopefully, I'll be able to have an answer for you later on. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you. Are there further questions on this item? Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to reiterate what one of my colleagues said. I would appreciate that, I see the NWT Arts Council, the funding remains the same throughout, and also the Indigenous languages. When you're having flow-through money, I think it's extremely important that we increase them, because the communities are affected. We have a lot of very talented people in the communities, and I think that it's a positive thing. Almost every weekend there are different arts things that go on, even at the museum in Fort Smith. Languages are extremely important, and the cultural aspect of it, to Salt River and to the Metis Nation, and also to even the Francophones. I'd like to see, in future budgets, that these two line items are increased. Okay? I'm going to be accepting them as they are now, of course, but I just want to make sure that you understand how important these are to the outside smaller communities and regions. I know that there's a lot of access to these two line items, especially in the community of Thebacha.

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The Chair Julie Green

Member for Thebacha, did you have a question you wanted the Minister to answer? Okay. Thank you. Minister, would you like to respond?

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, and I appreciate the Member's comments. Just this upcoming weekend is the K'amba Carnival in Hay River, so we talk about culture and language and arts, and it's very close to home. I appreciate the Member's comments, and I would love to see increases across the board in all of the great things that we do. We'll have those discussions over the next year about how we're going to allocate our funds. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have a couple of questions, and I think I'm going to start on language since we're there. The Minister had mentioned an influx of federal dollars available to Indigenous languages. Last year, in 2019, the federal government deemed 2019 the international year of Indigenous languages, and they opened up a federal funding pot of $333,700,000 that they were going to distribute over five years. I'm wondering if our government was able to provide, or does provide, any support to Indigenous governments to access that federal funding. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Our government has not accessed that, to date. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My question was: do we provide support to Indigenous governments in any way possible, in any of our capacities, to be able to provide support for Indigenous governments to access that funding? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

To my deputy minister, Ms. Mueller.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Madam Chair. In total for Indigenous languages and supporting Indigenous languages, we had, in 2019-2020, about $20 million. It's supporting a variety of different initiatives, both in the schools and outside the schools. We do distribute approximately close to $5 million to help support all the various Indigenous governments' language plans that they have, that they've developed, and they've done that in a five-year plan at a time. That's what we do. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. For my next question, I'm going to go back to the conversation about the NWT Arts Council. I know that there is an arts strategy currently in the works in conjunction with ITI, and I'm wondering when we can expect to see that. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. We hope to have that ready for tabling in the upcoming May-June session. Of course, prior to that, it will be making its way to committee for comments, feedback, et cetera. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The next two line items I'd like to talk about are the Indigenous broadcasting and Indigenous scholarships lines, which seem to have disappeared from the budget. Is that because they have been moved to another place within the budget? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I know that we still offer scholarships for Indigenous languages, and we have Indigenous language broadcasting money in the contributions section, instead of the grants section. There's been a bit of a reallocation. I believe these were program-specific, the ones from 2018-2019. I can get more details on that, though, for the Member, if that's okay, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much for that, Madam Chair. I'd appreciate that. I just want to make sure that we haven't gotten rid of our Indigenous language scholarships. Speaking of which, I'm wondering if the Department of Education, Culture and Employment has any type of formal interpreter or translator program available, given our need for cultural resurgence within the Northwest Territories and for professional translators. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. We have a number of programs that we are undertaking. I might as well just hand it over to my deputy minister, I think. She's very involved with this one, and she might get a more detailed answer. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Madam Chair. There is a lot of different work that we are doing in supporting the revitalization of Indigenous languages. We very much know, and we hear from our Indigenous government partners, that, ultimately, we need to build up the cohort of translators and interpreters throughout the Northwest Territories, in all of our Indigenous languages, especially in light of so many of our proficient translators and interpreters right now are close to retirement.

With that in mind, though, we are in a place where we're trying to build not only people's interests, but, I would say, their beginning levels of proficiency, so that they have the foundation in order to be able to take a translator and interpreter type of program. We have been working with the University of Victoria, which has really exciting programs in Indigenous language revitalization, from entry-level certificates all the way to master's degree programs. They've been a good partner to us, and we continue to strengthen that partnership.

We also look to Aurora College as a partner to be able to deliver those programs, so kind of a three-way partnership between UVic, Aurora College, and our departments su pporting that. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much for that, Madam Chair. I really appreciate that information, and I think it will be really interesting to be able to see how that program is doing and the graduates that come out of it over the course of this government. I think that's very exciting. I am wondering if the Minister would be willing to reflect on the significant increase in travel under the culture, heritage, and languages page, which went from actuals in 2018-2019 of $177,000, to the main estimates of $368,000, and I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to how that will improve the cultural, heritage, and languages program, and how that is a benefit to the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, that increase to travel was to support training opportunities for Indigenous governments. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake. Further comments on this section? Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to page 37, the arts council of $700,000, also the contributions for the $460,000 for the arts organizations operating funding and the support to northern performers, $101,000. Are these funds totally subscribed, and how are they split up around the NWT? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I would like to hand that to my deputy minister if you don't mind.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Madam Chair. In response, looking at the arts council and the funding available, the $700,000, that is done by application. Then, a committee goes through all those applicants. It is done twice a year so that people have an opportunity throughout the year to put in their applications. Then, all the funding is distributed based on the applications and the criteria as it was deemed appropriate by the arts council. As far as the other grants that we have, we really do distribute that by application. People apply, indicate what they would like the funding for, and the funding available is distributed. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess part of my question was: how was this spread across the NWT? The funding, is it located, say, mostly in Yellowknife? Is that where most of the applications come from, or is it equally distributed? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. We are working on gathering that information. To further answer the Member's earlier question, these pots of money are all fully subscribed. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. We have $1 million here, roughly. Is there any kind of full-time employment created? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Part of the work we are doing with the new arts strategy will be to make sure that we are quantifying exactly what that is. I can hand it to my deputy minister. She might have some more detail. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you very much. Just to give you an indication of the number of applicants from across the territories: in 1920, we received 120 applications through the NWT Arts Council from all over the North in a variety of different genres of arts. That included, out of that 120, 66 were individual artists applying for funding, and 54 applications were through organizations applying for funding. To go back to the question about whether it is distributed by region, no, the funding is available. It is by application. It is open to everybody in the Northwest Territories, individuals and organizations. That is then reviewed by the arts council, and then they are distributed, the grants. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. If I can get those numbers of exactly where the money lands after the applications are decided on? Next area I would like to talk about is the heritage centres. I think, in there, we are talking about emerging heritage centres. I think about Hay River with our little centre there. Does the department encourage the preservation of artifacts in the local and regional communities, and how so? Hay River, for instance, I will use that as an example. We have had people bringing in artifacts and different items, and we store them there. The funding that I see that you have allocated here is $491,000, which doesn't appear to be a lot of money. Is that for Yellowknife, or is that for other organizations or communities, as well? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

That is distributed to heritage centres outside of Yellowknife. For example, Hay River received $60,000 a year; I believe Norman Wells receives $118,00; Fort Simpson, $55,000; Fort Smith, $198,000; and, actually, the Yellowknife Historical Society received $60,000 of that. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think part of our priorities is tourism and increasing tourism outside Yellowknife. Is the department going to look at increasing the amount of funds going to these regional centres? Again, I will use Hay River as an example. The heritage centre had applied for $180,000, but that was through ITI. They got it knocked down to less than half. I am wondering if they can go to one pot and to the other, which might be this one, to get some more money, because I think there is a real opportunity there on the tourism side in the smaller communities, but we have to have something to give the tourists when they arrive. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. We are definitely putting thought into that. Our mandate is very heavy on increasing tourism outside of Yellowknife, helping build up local tourism infrastructure. That isn't specifically through ECE, but we all work together. The arts strategy is also going to look at how we can build on the strengths in the different communities. The regional economic plans that I think are happening throughout the departments will also inform that.

In Hay River, there is a great facility. It is an old building, and it needs some capital work. It would be a shame to just see that place shut down because they didn't have that funding, because they see a lot of people come through those doors every year. I take the Member's point that we need to support those types of organizations that do drive tourism. When people leave and they tell their friends about Hay River, I am sure they always speak about the museum. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. That is my concern, that building is old, not that old. I worked in there when I was 12 years old. Anyway, it does need work. There are a lot of good things in there. There is a lot of participation, a lot of volunteers. We have also expanded. The operation has been expanded to include a part of the old Hay River hotel, which needs work, and more room, as well, for artifacts or for crafts and for those type of items. I would encourage your department and the Cabinet, as well, to look at how we can maybe provide more funding to the regions to expand. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. There are always plans to do more. It often comes down to money. The government has been supportive of that centre. The Member mentioned the old Hay River hotel. That was donated by the GNWT. I believe there is a marine vessel that is making its way over to that museum at some point in the near future, as well. That came from the GNWT. We are contributing where we can, but I agree with the Member that it would be nice if we could do more to support those organizations. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Members, are there any further questions for this key activity, culture, heritage and languages? Seeing none, I am going to call the page. Education, Culture and Employment, culture, heritage and languages, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $18,613,000. Does committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, committee. Committee, we will now turn to page 40. Early childhood and school services, beginning on page 40 with an information item on page 44. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. This time around, I might start at the bottom of the page. I have the same question in regard to travel here. I am wondering if the Minister would mind speaking to the changes in travel costs. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Recently, we started working with the territorial support team, which is a group of professionals centred in Yellowknife. There are three positions right now, and they assist teachers in schools with instructions for children with higher needs. There is a speech pathologist, occupational therapist, and a mental health specialist, and they travel around the territory to the schools to do visits. They also offer remote support through telephone, email, et cetera, but that's what that increase is reflective of. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am very supportive of this initiative, and I'm wondering if there are plans within Education, Culture and Employment's long-term strategy to expand this program to other regions of the Northwest Territories so that, for example, they have a team based out of Inuvik? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. That would be ideal. That is what we would hope for, that we could have these supports in every community, or every region, at least, but the fact is that it's expensive. The cost of travel would be dwarfed by the cost of having these people in all of these regions. I'm not sure if that answers the question. We would love to, but it's not feasible at this point. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Have the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Social Services sat down together and looked at the cost in regard to medical travel for these types of services, for students who are travelling outside of their home community to places like Yellowknife or to places like Edmonton to receive these types of services, to see if the cost can be offset by costs we're already putting out for medical travel? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. No, we haven't done that work. This is particularly a team to support the principals, teachers, program support teachers. It's an interesting thought, and we can look into it, but we haven't done that to date. Thank you.

March 3rd, 2020

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm going to move up to the line item for fees and payments. The line item for fees and payments has changed significantly over the years, in a positive direction. It's gone from $2.475 to $4.19 million. I'm wondering if the Minister can elaborate a little bit on that line item. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I'm guessing we bought something big. If you give me a moment, I might be able to find out what that was. What that is, is a reallocation of funds from fees and payments to contract services, and those contract services are used to pay for the itinerant team, which is child and youth counsellors who travel to different communities. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Chair. I'm going to keep moving up the page, here, in the interest of time. My next question is in regard to inclusive schooling. Any of the educators I've spoken with across the Northwest Territories, or even within our school boards here in Yellowknife, have said that the need for funds for inclusive schooling is probably their greatest funding need, and I see that the line items are fairly status quo here for the inclusive schooling line. I'm wondering, given that our need for inclusive schooling continues to go up, and the supports required for students in the Northwest Territories continue to go up, how does the Department of Education, Culture and Employment feel that they will be able to meet the needs of students across the Northwest Territories with a status quo budget? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. We have a line that says "inclusive schooling," but that doesn't mean that all of our efforts related to inclusive schooling are contained in that line item. We talked about the child and youth care counsellors; we talked about the territorial support team; what we're doing with education renewal and innovation. All of that is related to this idea of inclusive schooling. As well, the mandate talks about renewing the Education Act, doing work to review inclusive schooling and address some of the issues that have emerged over the years. Virtually everything we do in education in the JK to 12 system is to address inclusive schooling, because it's not just a thing; it's a way that we operate and it's a way of educating. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I notice, on this page, there are the NWTTA Professional Improvement dollars, as well. I am wondering if we will expect to see a review of the STIP days come out of the Department of education this year. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. STIP, yes. The review that was legislated is scheduled to be complete by the end of the calendar year. It's always an ongoing process of determining how this is working. I mean, each calendar year, or each school year, schools have to fit this into their schedule, and so we've been learning every year. Part of the education renewal and innovation report that just came out was a review of STIP, as well, so we've had that review after a few years, and we're going to have a final review at the end of this calendar year. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that response. My next question is in regard to early learning and childcare. One of the priorities of the 19^th Legislative Assembly was affordable childcare, accessible and affordable childcare, and I notice that the budget for early learning and childcare has come down a little bit. I'm just wondering if the Minister would speak to that, please. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. That is due to a sunset of the Early Learning and Child Care Agreement with the Government of Canada. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My last question, and I'll let someone else talk here for a bit: does the Department of Education, Culture and Employment do exit interviews with its teachers? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The department doesn't really employ teachers; the teachers are employed by the education councils and education authorities, but we do teacher surveys. Perhaps for more detail I can go to Mr. MacDonald.

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The Chair Julie Green

Mr. MacDonald?

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Macdonald

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, just to build on what the Minister said, the teachers are employed by the various education bodies across the territory, so ECE does not participate in the hiring process or exit process for those individuals. However, we do conduct teacher surveys to help understand what types of issues are working for them, as well as where their challenges may be. In fact, in that recent education renewal and innovation evaluation, as well as in that STIP evaluation, there were teacher survey components to that, so that we could help understand what some of the challenges were that our teachers were experiencing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Next, we have the Member for Yellowknife Centre.

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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a number of questions that relate to early learning and childcare. I understand that the three-year agreement of federal money to create new spaces and lower fees is just about ready to expire at the end of this month. Can the Minister say what was achieved in the first three years of this agreement? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. That's a good question, and those are the kinds of questions that we have to answer every time we spend money, what was actually achieved by this. This is a difficult file, in many ways, because there are so many barriers to improving access and affordability. Some of those are the fact that it's difficult to find people to do this work, and so, you know, wage subsidies that are offered through this program help to retain employees for daycares who may have otherwise not continued to be employed. Is that concrete evidence? Perhaps we need to do a better job of evaluating this. I can go to my deputy minister for some more information. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you very much. For this past three-year agreement, we really focused on trying to strengthen many of the programs that we had. For example, some of the initiatives were really around instructor training, trying to ensure that all of our licensed early childhood practitioners had opportunities for training in a variety of ways, in ways that they did not necessarily have before. We also focused on developing culturally appropriate materials, age-appropriate materials for all of our licensed centres, and ensuring that they had that consistently across all programs, which, normally, in the past, some of them would not have been able to have access to. We also really looked at, within this, to see what we could do to start the process of developing an early learning curriculum for our licensed program, so basically a foundation, to really look at what does it mean to have a quality program, and to try to engage all of our partners in that. Then, we also were able to continue with a yearly symposium on early learning and child development and were able to bring in licensed staff to be able to participate in that; so, really, a lot of our focus was training and development. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, and I believe the Member's questions were more focused on our mandate and increasing the availability and affordability. A lot of what we have done is focused on quality and shoring up the foundation of our childcare, but, to the point of increasing it, affordability and availability, you know there is still obviously much work to be done. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Yes, thank you. Just to clarify, my questions were really about the three-year agreement that is coming to an end and how to point the way forward. My recollection of that agreement was that there was going to be more money for training, for scholarships, for wage subsidies and so on. Do you have any figures about the uptake on that, whether we have more trained people, we have a more stable workforce? Is there any kind of measurement that shows the value for that money spent? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. If I could hand it to Mr. MacDonald?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you. Mr. MacDonald.

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Macdonald

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just with respect to the Early Learning and Child Care Agreement, we have an action plan associated with that agreement, that is a bilateral action plan with the Government of Canada, and we are obligated to report annually on the actions within that plan. That is a good place to highlight some of the commitments that we made to Canada in order to obtain that funding for the Northwest Territories. I would probably add that, in terms of strategy, how we have tried to deploy that funding on an annual basis over that three-year period is to enhance the programs and services that we provide. For example, the early childhood program, which is our key subsidy program for licensed childcare centres, we have increased the rates, with the intent of course to help stabilize, to reduce fees for parents, and to help ensure that those programs are sustainable in the long term. As we move into the next phase of that bilateral agreement, we will have more data and more information at our disposal to enable us to make good choices around childcare. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. If the Member is looking for metrics of how many scholarships, what we have done, the numbers involved, we will definitely put that together. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Yes, thank you for those responses. I would like to see the annual report on the action plan. I don't recall that was ever shared with the Standing Committee on Social Development, and it would be useful to see it. I understand the point of shoring up the current programming. I am not sure I understand so much developing curriculum for childcare. What I hear most often is that people find it difficult to obtain childcare and they find it unaffordable when it is available. As the Minister knows, there are a number of communities in the Northwest Territories, about a third of them, that do not have any childcare. My question is: how will the next agreement address questions around availability and affordability of childcare? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, and I take the Member's point that, in the previous three years, a lot of the work was focused not on necessarily increasing availability and affordability but on shoring up the foundations and using early childcare as a way to educate our youth and to prepare them for school. However, going forward, we are mandated to increase availability and to increase affordability, so we have a number of mandate items directly related to that. In the negotiations of the new agreement, we will be pursuing those as our priorities. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the Minister for that. Can the Minister say what stage the negotiations are at and when he expects the new agreement to be in place? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I think it might have to do with the federal election, but it's a bit of a waiting game right now. It's not just us. All of the territories and provinces are waiting to hear back from the federal government about what their offer is and what we could be negotiating for. Thank you. I don't have a timeline for the Member. I am sorry.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Yes, thank you. One of the discussions we had late in the last Assembly was about the possibility of rewriting the standards of space provided for childcare, in order to make it more accessible. As the Minister may recall, the standard for childcare space is akin to hospital space. It's a very high quality of space that is required. Not all communities have space available in that quality of building, so is there any development at all on the idea of making the space requirements for childcare more attainable? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. If you'll indulge me, I will go back to the Member's previous comments about the Early Learning and Child Care Agreement annual report that is done by the department. That was tabled in the last Assembly, the last year of the last Assembly, so that should be readily available. In terms of the Member's present question, yes, we are doing that work of looking at the spaces available; what type of spaces we can use; you know, looking at whether or not we can use government infrastructure, looking at how, in conjunction with the Housing Corporation, homes can be used for spaces. We have to commit to ensuring that these spaces are safe. That is the primary goal. I would not say it's akin to hospital space, but there are high standards. That being said, we are always open to looking at those standards, re-evaluating those standards. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. At this point, we will call a 10-minute recess or break.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Members, I will now call the committee back to order. Next up, we have the Member for Nunakput.

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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Education is very important across the North. Our education rates, our inclusive schooling needs across the territory, but over the course of this government's term, we will spend over $70 million in forced growth for our UNW collective bargaining compared to our $25 million that we have set aside for all of the 22 priorities that we put as 19 Members. It's only a third of what we're spending in the salaries of increases that are going to happen. You know, some of that money would have been much better and needed in early childhood and school services. Mr. Chair, it's more of a comment, but I think we have to take a step back and take a good look at what we're doing here. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you to the Member for the comment.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Member for Nunakput.

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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

No. At least the Minister's hearing me loud and clear. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. The next will be the Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to ask a question to the Minister with regard to the territorial support team, and how many times they go into the communities. Because it's a territorial support team, I would like to know how many times they come to the community of Fort Smith?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. It's on a referral basis, so it's not scheduled visits. It's based on the needs of the community. For some detail, I can go to the deputy minister. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

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Mueller

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The territorial team is available to all schools and all education bodies. It is based on referrals. What they do is they indicate through their superintendent a particular child that they would like to have help and support with. Often, it's initiated by the principal, and the program support teacher, and the classroom teacher. That support comes in a variety of ways. If the team is needed onsite, they'll go onsite. Often, they're helping through video conferencing and through teleconferencing as well, so that's daily. They might have multiple meetings with different schools, talking about different supports for various students. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I guess a territorial support team, they're very hard to find qualified people like psychologists and a whole team to go into, to have a team in every community which is ideal and that will never happen, but if the territorial support team is only done by referral, I think there should be a more organized group. The group should actually be doing every month or every two months, at least, into the community. When they're not there, I'm just wondering if the special needs children, the autism and all the special needs that we have at schools, are being financially looked after in a different way.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I appreciate what the Member is saying. It would be nice if we had the resources to send the team out to the regions on a regular basis, but the fact is, they just don't have the time. We don't have enough people. This is intended to augment what's already going on in the community, not to replace that. It's not the only service that these students would be getting. It's valuable. For the students who need it, it's very, very valuable for the students, the parents, and the teachers. I would love to do what the Member is asking and get them out into the different communities on a regular basis, but the fact is that we just don't have the power to do that, the number of people that we would need to do that. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I'd like to ask the Minister: how could you call this a territorial support team if they're not able to go into the communities?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The territorial support team does go into the communities. They don't travel there on a regular basis. There are referrals. Based on those referrals, I believe there's been 42 in the last year, so there's been nine from the Beaufort Delta; there's been four in the Sahtu; the Deh Cho, Tlicho. They've been all over the entire territory. The largest number is in Yellowknife, but that's just because of the size of the population, but they do travel to every region. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I have a question. We had a recent Auditor General's report, and I want to make sure that there's going to be enough financial allocation to fill those gaps at the DA level, so we could address some of those concerns in the Auditor General's report?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I agree. I want to make sure that we have the resources available to do that. Everyone knows what our fiscal situation is. Everyone knows how much is being committed to new initiatives. What the report of the auditor general says, and what the priorities of this Assembly say, and what the mandate of this government says is all the same thing essentially. It's mandating us to do what we do. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment is supposed to be increasing educational outcomes. It's supposed to be increasing early developmental index scores. Those are the things that we're supposed to do. Everything that we do is focused on that.

Sometimes it's not a matter of throwing money at it. It would make it easier, probably. If we don't have the money, we need to focus on making the kind of changes that are going to have the biggest impact. A lot of that is focusing on early childhood education so that we don't run into a lot of the problems that we're running into. We have to review the policies that we have. We have to review how we administer and how we dictate what inclusive schooling means and what it is. All those things don't necessarily take a lot of money although they do take money, but given the fact that we don't have the kind of money that I would love to see in education, we're going to have to do the best with what we can. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also want to talk a little bit about inclusive schooling. When the junior kindergarten came into play, there were gaps because of junior kindergarten, and inclusive schooling isn't back to where it used to be. There were a lot of extracurricular activities that were taken away from both schools in Fort Smith, and there is still a financial gap because of junior kindergarten. All our funds, all excessive funds, were always given to the junior kindergarten program, and there have been some financial gaps. I wonder when those gaps are going to be closed. I do all of my volunteer work at both schools; I always did, since 1995. You know, I support both schools and I support the education system, and I just feel that there are some gaps that have to be filled.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Junior kindergarten is funded the same way that every other grade in a school is funded, so there should be no financial gaps. There are more students, there are more classes, but there is more money that is flowing the same way as if that was additional students in grade one, or if you had to open up a second grade one class. It's the same type of money. That being said, I know that schools are often tight for cash. You know, you talk to some principals, and they say they have to determine whether they are going to buy these supplies, these books, maybe, that the class might need, or they're going to buy toilet paper. You know, those are tough decisions.

The way that we flow money, the way that education councils flow money to schools, is another thing that we're looking at. The funding formula in the mandate says that we are committed to looking at that and figuring out if it's working. You know, we provide $155 million to the education councils. Is that money being spent in the best possible way? I know that, when it reaches the schools, the people on the ground, they know what to do with that money. They know where those gaps are, and they know how to fill those holes; but we have to make sure that all the money that needs to get there is getting there. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I just have one final comment, and that has to do, again, with the territorial support team. If they're not doing regular territorial support team referrals to the communities on a regular basis, that is also a gap that I see. I think that, if it is a territorial support team and they are stationed here in Yellowknife, they should be making regular visits to the schools and to all the communities so that they have access to the territorial support team, even without referral. Everybody needs a team like that. You know, to have a qualified team like that, it supposedly should be at the disposal of all the citizens of the Northwest Territories, and I hope there is a way that we can make sure that, with future needs, and especially with the special needs children, we all have the same access. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's all I have to say. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The team does get out to communities. It does engage with students from all over the territory, in person; well, rather it engages with the principals and the teachers in person, by phone, over video chat. It's not just based in Yellowknife. What I'm saying is they don't do regular scheduled visits; it's not like, the third Wednesday of every month, they're in this community. The team doesn't work like that. It's referral-based, and these referrals are for assistance with students who have the highest needs in the territory. You know, a lot of students have needs. There is always a wide variety. These are the students with the highest needs, who the teachers and the principals have not been able to find a way to teach effectively, for a variety of reasons.

I take the Member's point that we need assistance across the territory. This is a very specialized team that deals with a relatively small number of students throughout the territory, and I'm not sure if making regularly scheduled visits around is the best use of their time. Again, I wish that we had speech pathologists in all the regions. It's very valuable; but the fact is we don't, and so we're targeting certain cases with this team. I take the Member's point, and I thank her for her passion.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Next on the list is the Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of areas I'd like to explore. One is early learning childcare. The funding shown on page 41 actually looks like it's declining over time. The backdrop to this is that the early development instrument results were released in 2018, and they actually showed an increase in the vulnerability of our youngest students, children up to age five, which is not a good place to be. I know the former Premier got some, maybe, headlines that he really didn't want to get for talking about that in the media. In every single study I've ever seen about investment in early childhood development, big payoffs, 7 to 1, 10 to 1. TD Bank, I know, did a study on this. What is happening here with declining funding in this area of the budget? The results are things are getting worse, and how are we going to fix this? That's my question for the Minister. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. In the early years of the agreement, money could be carried over, and so it shows up in here as more money at certain times. Then we have the decrease in the early childhood development and learning agreement due to the fact that it's sunsetting. Those are the issues with that. I agree; investments in early childhood are the best bang for your buck you can get, probably across any department. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Well, this should make for some very interesting discussions when it comes to the supplementary appropriation in May-June, where we're going to try to get the biggest bang for our bucks. It's wonderful that the Minister and I are on the same page on this, and I look forward to more money in the supp for this particular investment. I want to go, though, to the funding formula for schools. I think that the Minister, even today, has said that that's something that is going to be reviewed. I'm just wondering if he can give us a little bit more explanation of how and when that's going to take place. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

The evaluation of the funding formula will take place in the coming years. We just put this mandate out, and committee knows there has been a lot of back and forth. The policy shops and all the departments have been going full-tilt and haven't necessarily had a chance to lay out our plan for the next four years. That's what we're working on. We know what we want to do. How exactly we're going to do it, that's still being worked out, so I don't have the details of this funding formula, but it's going to take engagement, obviously. I have my own concerns with this. As a Member for four years, I heard a lot about this. As I travel around the territory, too, I visit a school; everywhere I go, I visit the schools. You talk to the people who have to administer this funding, and you see the gaps that the previous Member mentioned.

There are some things that appear obvious, and so we have a good idea of where we need to start. I could go on about what we could possibly do, but, to the Member's point, I don't have a framework that we are going to evaluate the framework by at this point, and I don't have a concrete timeline, although that work is going to begin as soon as we are done with this whole process and we have a concrete plan to move forward. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the Minister for his honesty in all of that and forthrightness. I do have some ideas, though, that I will pitch his way. There was a collaborative approach taken with the NWTAC for the municipal funding gap review. There was a working group. They looked at the issue. They looked at some alternatives. It included people from MACA, as well. One of the principles that they said was that no community should lose funding as a result of this. I think that is a good thing. I think that is something you might want to think about as a principle for looking at the rejigging of the school funding formula, that no school should maybe lose money, so it's really about building all of our schools together. I trust that the Minister is going to do this in a collaborative fashion.

I guess the two things that I have heard in the short time that I have been here that are really problematic: one, inclusive schooling, that it should be more of a needs-based approach in terms of not just based on total enrolment; you really have to look at the needs of the kids in any particular school, in any particular district, to understand what it is that they need to help with and build inclusive schooling. That is one thing I have heard, and then, secondly: where there is a drop in enrolment from one year to the next, that can cause kind of a dramatic change in funding for a school authority, and it's kind of hard to make those sudden adjustments in terms of staffing and so on. I am aware that there are a couple of jurisdictions, I think in Manitoba and Ontario, where, even if there is a drastic change in enrolment, it's a phased-in approach to changing the formula so that a school board's funding doesn't go precipitously like this. Are those the kinds of things, though, that the department is going to look at in reviewing the school funding formula? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I will say the department has done some preliminary work on this already, on the funding formula. We are going to have to work together, talk about collaborative fashions, the education leaders, the chairs of the authorities in all of the different communities. There has been a lot of interest from Indigenous governments on this, as well, not just the funding formula but the act and how the renewal or the modernization of the act will relate to Indigenous governments and their involvement. If they are going to have a greater involvement, direct involvement, then they are going to be interested in this funding, so we need to engage with everyone.

I have either made an offer or the committee has asked for a briefing on the funding formula, and I am happy to do that. I am not sure if I have signed the official letter yet, but I am always happy to provide briefings. The Member mentioned a few different ideas, and I think I have probably discussed them in this House with everyone so far. There are a lot of good ideas out there. Do we need to fund schools based on enrolment, or do we need to fund schools based on the outcomes we want to see? It's an interesting concept. It might be too expensive of a concept for us, but it's something that we are looking into. I am not just going to close the door on anything just because it might be too expensive. We are going to look into everything we can. I mean, I could go on and on, but I appreciate all of the comments that we are getting from everyone and everyone I speak to because everyone is affected by the education system and they all want to have their say, and I am happy to hear it. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I appreciate the Minister's comments, and I am sure he will be happy to do this, but can he make a commitment to come to standing committee to talk about this? I know he is going to brief us, brief committee, on the funding formula itself, but in terms of a process of reviewing and changing, is he willing to come to committee and seek committee's input into designing that process? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, and of course maybe we can do it all at once because I haven't had a chance to get in front of committee once yet, so, next time I get an opportunity, I will make the most of it. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Next up is the Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is: there are a number of Jordan's Principles initiatives that would fall under these areas. Can I just clarify whether there is any Jordan's Principle money in this budget?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. No, there is not.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Member.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess my concern is that, in a number of regions, I believe Jordan's Principle funding is essentially propping up our education or early childhood systems, whether it's speech therapists or educational supports. Do we presently track how much Jordan's Principle money is entering our system?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Yes, we do. We track the funding amount entering each education council's or authority's region as well as the number of positions that that money is being used to fund. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. May I have the total amount right now flowing to our education authorities?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. For the 2019-2020 school year as of December 2019, the combined amount received by education authorities in the territory was $15,960,616, and there were 173.26 positions created using that money. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I sometimes wish that I could have a federal Minister in front of me. The fact that there is $15 million and a lot of positions presently being funded by our federal government, do we have a sense of the stability of that funding? I know this is a question a federal Minister would have to answer, but is Jordan's Principle's funding going to disappear anytime? That is a huge amount flowing directly to our schools.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I think the indications from the federal government is that this is funding that they would like to see entrenched. Perhaps I can hand it over to Mr. MacDonald, who might have some more information.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Mr. MacDonald.

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Macdonald

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, federal funding is actually divided into two separate programs, both delivered through Indigenous Services Canada. One program is the better known. It's Jordan's Principle, and that program is funded based on a Human Rights Tribunal decision, so the federal government has a long-term policy and funding commitment for Jordan's Principle. The second program is known as Children First, and it's basically a similar program, designed for Inuit children who need those same services. That program does not have the same degree of permanence to it at this time, as far as we are aware. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I kind of want to save myself time asking every department that has Jordan's Principle funding applying to it and flowing through it. Once again, I know this is a federal government initiative, but perhaps, I am looking at the Minister of Finance, we could have a breakdown of the total Jordan's Principle funding that is existing within the GNWT right now?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I can work with the Minister of Finance to figure that out. The amount that exists in the department of Education, Culture and Employment is zero because this is money that is applied for by the education councils, not by us. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Yes, thank you, and I recognize that, and that is the complication of me asking these questions. You have committed to reviewing the funding formula, but, to me, the conversation about the funding formula really is not complete without recognition that there are millions of dollars in the system that is not ours. I think that figure is extremely important to all conversations going forward. Moving on, I wanted to Northern Distance Learning. I understand we are in phase 3 right now. Are we meeting our expansion goals, and can you give me an idea of what communities are next?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Yes, we are meeting the goal we set out three years ago now. We will be expanding in the coming year to 20 communities. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you. I am happy to hear that is on track, and I look forward to further expansion. My next question is: the Education Act will be coming forward in the life of this Assembly. I am glad we are going to have the conversation about the funding formula. Can I just confirm that the scope of the Education Act amendments will include allowing us to devolve education to Indigenous governments should it be desired?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I think this would likely be more of a repeal-and-replace than a few amendments here and there. One of the main considerations is the fact that the Member just referenced that we need a piece of legislation that allows Indigenous governments to devolve the authorities that they have that our legislation currently doesn't allow. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Next up is the Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just going to add some questions to carry on from what my colleague from Yellowknife North mentioned about Jordan's Principle. I think there are two or three some of the schools already that are affected by this. I think it is really important. It kind of runs in parallel with a lot of the DEA work that is going on. My question I had for this was: how is this federal program going to affect the overall budget going forward? I know it's a pretty broad question, but is this going to be one of those programs that is going to run alongside it? Is it going to be for the better of the overall budget for education going forward? Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Our budget is going to continue to be our budget. Then there is this supplementary funding coming from the federal government. In the long term, like the previous Member stated, we do have to consider this. Is there a need for these 173 positions? If there is, why aren't they being funded from within the department? Why isn't that part of our funding formula? These are big conversations we have to have.

Some of the schools I have been to have an amazingly high amount of Jordan's Principle workers there, whether they are support assistants or teachers. You talk to the teachers in those schools, and they say they can't run their class without those assistants because there are students who just need somebody with them, not to take them out of the class, but just to give them a little more attention. Without those additional adult bodies in the room, classes become a little more disruptive, and it is hard for anyone to learn. It is going to be a major discussion over the coming years for sure. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the Minister for his response. I did hear the word "entrenched" going forward. To me, that sounds like at some point the Minister one of his colleagues will be lobbying for more federal funding for this program. Is that what I'm hearing? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Absolutely. This has become vital. I think the feds see a need for it, and I can't speak for them. I can't say if it is entrenched. We could have a new government, and they could get drastically slashed. When I speak with the appropriate ministers, I will definitely be speaking to the value of this. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have nothing further.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you. If there are no further questions, please turn to page 41. Education, Culture and Employment, early childhood and school services, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $202,806,000. Does committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you. Next item will be income security beginning on page 45, with information item on page 48. Questions. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to, with the chair's indulgence, bring in Mr. Saturnino for these next two sections. Mr. MacDonald may take his leave into the witness room, I guess.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

That is fine. Please proceed. Bring in the witness. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Making his first appearance at the witness table, Mr. Saturnino.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Questions. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It took me some time to realize that income assistance and income security are two different terms. My questions are in relation to Income Assistance. My question right now is: Income Assistance is a great program, but one of the issues I consistently have with my constituents is that they don't have a phone and they don't have the Internet, which doesn't allow them to look for jobs. Often, if they don't have a phone, they miss their appointments, which then means they miss their Income Assistance cheque. Then, it kind of spirals. They lose their housing, and we end up having people in poverty. My question to the Minister is: Is there a possibility of adding a communications allowance into the Income Assistance program and what that would cost?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I appreciate where the Member is coming from. In our modern world, everyone has cellphones. Everyone uses the Internet. It has become sort of a necessity of life. It has been recognized as such by multiple organizations. We do allow clients to use phones and the internet in the Income Assistance office. In this budget, though, we aren't contemplating adding a phone or Internet allowance. There has been some work done on that. Just looking at a basic phone plan and a basic Internet plan on your phone, we are pushing, I think, an additional $2 million or so is what it would cost. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to having further conversations of this. I appreciate getting that number of $2 million. I see that Income Assistance, we all know, is increasingly going up. It went up $2 million from the last part. I think one of my beliefs here, perhaps we can have this conversation later, is that if you actually give a person a phone and the internet, they are more likely to get a job. They are more likely to be able to get in contact with the numerous services they are interacting with. We have seen through Integrated Case Management that often our most vulnerable clients not having a phone is one of the biggest issues that causes the spiral into poverty. In that analysis, has the Minister looked into whether providing people with a phone or the internet would actually save us any money?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

No, I haven't looked into that. It would be difficult to sort of extrapolate that from other jurisdictions, to say, "This has worked in other jurisdictions, so it will also work in the territory." We are vastly different from most places that would do this type of research. I have been very open with the Members that I want to have an Income Assistance program that helps people get back into the job market. A lot of people on Income Assistance, they are in and out. Some, there are additional barriers that keep them out of that job market. What are those and how can we assist them to get into that job market? If this is something that shows some merit, maybe was can look further into it. Again, there are a lot of asks, especially in ECE. We can't pay for everything that we would like. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to having these conversations, and I think it just seems common sense that not having a phone is a barrier to getting a job, so maybe we could look into this more. My next question is, in regard to Income Assistance, for the $34 million we spend a year, how much do we spend in administration? That would be the staff and the people to actually provide money to the end users.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. We can't parse out Income Assistance from the entire Income Security program. Income Assistance is about, I'd have to look at the exact number, here, $32 million, but the client service officers who distribute Income Assistance also deal with the Senior Home Heating Subsidy and a number of other programs. So, of the total of $52 million that is spent on those programs, $6.5 million is spent on administration. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You will hear me over the next four years make multiple pitches for a guaranteed liveable income. I think one of the strongest arguments is the fact that $6.5 million of this $32 million, depending on which numbers we're talking about, exactly, is spent in administration costs. I'll leave that debate for another time. One of my other concerns with Income Assistance is it often requires people coming into the offices. There is a lot of paperwork involved. I believe this is in the mandate and there is some work being done on single-window service. Are there presently efforts in the department to move more of Income Assistance applications online?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. At this point, we haven't done that work. A lot of times, people are bringing in pay stubs, they're bringing in things from the bank, and those are being brought in for verification. It isn't something that really lends itself, but that being said, I'll look into what other jurisdictions are doing and see if there are efficiencies to be found in that way. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Minister's commitment to look into that and see what other jurisdictions are doing. Ultimately, I think one of the beautiful things about it is, if we create these online service portals, and we're seeing this done for more and more departments, then in certain cases you don't need the administrative staff. They essentially are replaced by the internet, which then means we have more money to provide people the actual Income Assistance, and, you know, perhaps a phone. I think there is a strong, once again, cost-savings argument to creating an online portal for Income Assistance. I'll just leave that as a comment.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Online portals aren't free. I mean, there are always costs associated with them. I've seen them in the previous government, and honestly, if we had an online portal, it would free up time for our client service officers who, I think, are all overworked and who would probably appreciate being able to have the time to do what they're supposed to be doing and not be running themselves ragged. I don't know if it would result in any savings in wages. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

No, thank you, sir.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just looking at two line items here, and a quick comment, then some questions. I'm looking at the Senior Citizen Supplementary Benefit and Senior Home Heating Subsidy, those two line items. There's not a whole lot of change in there. I want to make some comments on our mandate, with our mandate item to enable seniors to age in place with dignity. We had a couple of commitments, and that's to increase the Senior Home Heating Subsidy and to create a separate Income Assistance program for seniors or persons with disabilities, in our mandate. I would like to ask the Minister what is his vision or plan going forward to increase these numbers and/or how would it look in the next budget moving forward? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Right now, the Senior Home Heating Subsidy, I think a lot of people see it as covering 100 percent of the costs. The fact is that it is intended to cover about 74 percent of the average cost of heating a home, an average home, in a particular region; and so each region is different. What we are proposing and what we are going to do is increase that 74 percent to 80 percent. It's not 100 percent, but it is a larger increase.

One of the issues that I find people run into that, you know, this was a cold winter, especially up in the Beaufort-Delta, and seniors, they spend all of their heating money by February, and then, if they want a fill-up, each fill-up is a minimum of $300, and they don't have that $300. One of the options is looking at, if it is a subsidy and there is an expected contribution, perhaps every fill-up, there is a contribution from the senior. So, you know, instead of having a $300 contribution all at once at the end, maybe a few of them in a row, you make small contributions throughout the year so that you can extend that. There are administrative issues surrounding that, but that's just one of the options.

The other initiative the Member mentioned was creating -- sorry, one second, here. I want to get the wording right. I guess it was the position or the stream of Income Assistance for seniors, I believe. There is work under way to figure out how we can do that. There is no point in having seniors who have aged out of the workforce reporting their income every single month. I know seniors on Income Assistance who have difficulty getting out of the house. They have medical issues that keep them homebound, and it's difficult for them just to do that basic reporting. Even if you payroll them, it's still a big issue to get out of there every three or six or 12 months. The idea is to treat those people who are collecting Income Assistance differently from the people who are able-bodied and who have fallen on hard times. They are two completely different populations, and there is no point in having them lumped together in a single program, and so the idea is to separate those programs so that it serves those distinct populations better. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the Minister for that response, as well. I guess I had a quick comment. I was just doing some research here, just earlier, on the NWT statistics on some age demographics, and it looks like we're going to start to see an influx of people retiring. I'm just wondering: are we going to expect to see an increase with these two line items that I just mentioned, moving forward? I have a feeling that we're going to be seeing an increase in applications for these programs. Mahsi cho, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. It's hard to predict a lot of these programs, but I think that, if you look at the statistics of the number of people who are getting to a certain age, more people are going to become eligible for the programs, and hence there is going to be more uptake. That's certainly what we've seen. You know, there are also fuel prices. While these aren't tied to fuel prices, necessarily, if a senior runs out of fuel, we don't just leave them hanging. If they've used their entire benefit and they still are eligible for Income Assistance, we'll help them out so that their house doesn't freeze in the middle of February in minus 40. Right? And so those types of costs also grow, and those are based on the fuel cost. If the price of fuel doubles, they're going to run out more quickly and we're going to be providing more of that additional assistance, as well. Unfortunately, like most of these types of programs in the territory, I imagine that costs will go up. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you again for that response. Helping elders in the middle of winter like that sounds good to me. That sounds dignified. I'd like to hear more of that and hear that from other departments. That's just a comment, and that's all I have to say. Mahsi cho.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Again, I'll bring this back to what I've been saying and what everyone has been saying here, that it would be great if we could increase all of these programs and do all of these things we want to do, but we have to focus on the priorities of the Assembly and the mandate. There are a lot of great ideas and wonderful things that I would like to see done in Income Assistance, but they all cost money, and so I want to temper everyone's expectations. While I am open to discussing everything and changing what we can do, changing our mentality, it all costs money, and so I am not guaranteeing it's all going to get done or even any of it is going to get done. However, if we can do things better, that is what I want to do, and I want to work with the Members to do that. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to ask a question on the student financial assistance. For the 2018-2019 actuals to now, there has been an increase. Does that mean there are more students enrolled, or does it mean an increase in student financial assistance?

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The budget has remained the same, but there are more students projected to access it, so we budgeted it higher than we needed to, I guess, in the last round, so there were fewer students accessing it. Going forward, hopefully, we have more students accessing it.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I just want to make sure that all students who want to take post-secondary education have access. I am saying that because we had a problem just before Christmas with regard to the new aviation program that was being held in Fort Smith. In the end, I want to make sure that post-secondary education includes pilots, that it does not necessarily have to all be associated with Aurora College or University of Alberta or anywhere else in Canada, and I want to make sure that access is important for all students of the Northwest Territories and there is no distinguishment of where they are going to school. That is all I am asking.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. The way that SFA determines whether or not a school is eligible is based on a master list. You can access it. It's a federal list of accredited universities. It's accessible through the SFA website. If you go on there, you can search for a school and, if it's on that list, then, if it is a program leading to a licence, certificate, diploma, bachelors, masters, et cetera, then it's an eligible school. Thank you.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I don't have any other questions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you. Any further questions on income security? There are no further questions. Please turn to page 46, Education, Culture and Employment, income security, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $54,359,000. Does committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

Thank you. The next section is labour development and advanced education, beginning on page 49 with information items on pages 53 to 60. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

[Microphone turned off]

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The Chair Rocky Simpson

We can't hear you. I guess it sounds like it's dinner time, according to Ms. Chinna, so we will break for five minutes. We will have a recess for about 20 minutes. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

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The Chair Julie Green

I'd like to call committee back to order. We are reviewing the budget for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Key activity, labour development and advanced education. Does anyone have any questions on this key activity? Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm on page 51, and trades and occupations wage subsidy. I see in 2018-2019, it was 655, and it got bumped up to almost double next year. What was the reason for that? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. There was no change in the budget. Just the actuals were low that year because it was undersubscribed. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I should have looked at it. I didn't have my glasses on. With respect to the trades subsidy of $1,072,000, is that allocated by region or by need? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I'm going to hand this over to Mr. Saturnino who can, perhaps, provide a bit more detail. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

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Saturnino

Thank you, Madam Chair. The trades and occupations wage subsidy is allocated at a regional level, and it's based on the number of apprentices distributed throughout the regions. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. Saturnino. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. If the wage subsidy program is not used up, what happens to the funds that are sitting there? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. Just to be clear, the fund is distributed on a needs basis, basically first come, first served. It's not allocated per region, say a quarter or a fifth to each region. It's just first come, first served and needs. The funds that aren't allocated, they do not get spent, basically; they go back to the general coffers, just like any other budget line that is not fully spent. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the problems that I guess I found with the trades programs or with the trades, I guess, in itself, is that we do not have enough tradespeople to provide the ticket for which the apprentices can work under. Is there any intent or any interest in your department looking at other methods to make this happen? For instance, my understanding is that you have to have somebody on payroll, which to me means you pay somebody one dollar a year remuneration and that should be sufficient; would that be an option? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I am very familiar with this. I have had constituent businesses who have brought this issue to my attention time and time again, and I have had discussions with the department about what we can do to address this issue. Questions earlier in the House today reminded me of this. You know, dental hygienists can't perform their work because there are no dentists around. Similarly, apprentices can't get their hours and can't move to journeypersons because there are no journeypersons around. We have discussed some different approaches, and, in the mandate, we have an item in there that somewhat speaks to it in broad terms, that we are looking at ways to allow apprentices to get those hours without having that constant supervision of a journeyman around, whatever that might look like. That is not a fully formed plan yet, but the concept is there to address this exact need the Member is speaking about. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess my understanding is the ratio is kind of two apprentices per journeyperson. Is that the ratio that is allowed right now? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Correct, thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Are you considering changing that ratio, as well, to, say, maybe three or four or five apprentices per journeyperson? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. That flexibility is available. We can do that, from my understanding, without a change to the regulations or any acts, and so again that is the type of initiative we might be looking at. We need to be flexible. We have journeymen retiring at an accelerating rate, it seems like, and we have not been doing what we need to do to replace them over the past number of years. All across Canada, we are facing a shortage in skilled labour, and, just like anything else, the North is an extreme example of that. This is at the front of my mind. We are not going to build local economies, we are not going to keep money in the North unless we can increase the number of apprentices and journeypersons, and I am fully committed to doing my best to making that happen. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

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Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Earlier today, I raised the issue of only year one and year two of apprenticeships being covered, and I have read somewhere where it said that in years three and four, government expected that these apprentices would basically pay their own way. I can tell you right now that that is not the case. With the economy the way it is, a lot of small employers, if they have apprentices working, they will keep them on if they know they are getting that subsidy; they will keep them on, even if they do not have enough work, and maybe have them do other things. The subsidy is very, very important, and I think you need to know that, and I think it should be expanded to years three and four. I think it might have been like that before. I am not sure, but I would urge your department to look at, at least consider, in year three and possibly year four because it's like anything else. It's like going to university. You go for four years. When you come out, you still don't know anything, and, if you think you know it, then you don't know anything. It's the same in this case, as well. I think it's important that we give the apprentices every opportunity to succeed, and it's important that we also make sure that the employers who are taking a chance on them are provided that same opportunity. I am not sure if there is a question in there, but they can comment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister, do you want to respond?

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Sure. Similar to the comments I made earlier today in the House, I am open to looking at that because I get calls from businesses all the time who are just doing their best to stay open and keep people employed, and sometimes this subsidy or the little bit of help they can get makes the difference between having to lay someone off and helping someone get to that next year, so we will do what we can. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Next on my list, I have the Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have a few questions. My first is for the apprenticeship and occupational certification line. How many apprenticeships are currently involved in the program? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

There are 320. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Page 457

The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. On page 51, under "grants," there is "workforce development agreement," and under "contributions," there is also, the bottom line, "workforce development agreement." I am wondering if the Minister can speak to the differences between these two line items and why one is going up and the other is going down? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. If you don't mind, I would like to let Mr. Saturnino answer that.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

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Saturnino

Thank you, Madam Chair. The workforce development agreement is a federal labour market agreement that we signed with Canada, and what you are seeing here are two distinct line items, one that funds individuals who access the program and also employers and the other that funds organizations. Essentially, unlike the territorial budget lines, in this particular area, we can spend in either area, as long as we do not go over the maximum. So, if the demand is for the grants, we can exceed the amount as long as we are not exceeding the total, and so we have that flexibility under our federal labour market agreement. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Mr. Saturnino. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Okay, so, just so that I understand, the difference is whether we are funding an organization or an individual, a specific individual, or an employer, but we can shuffle money between the two as long as they are consistently going for workforce development. Is that correct?

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

That is correct.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My next question is in regard to Aurora College. I am wondering if the Minister can tell us both the number of graduates from last year and the number of students? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. If you will just give me a moment, I have to pull up that information. In 2018-2019, we had 486 full-time students and 1,523 part-time students enrolled. I will get you the graduation numbers shortly.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am going to work my way down to the literacy funding line item. Is that federal grant money, or is that GNWT money, just so that I am reading this right? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. It is territorial.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have noticed that, over time, this funding between 2018-2019 actuals to the main estimates for this year seems to be going down to the tune of approximately a half million dollars. Is this a trend that we can expect to continue to see over the life of this Assembly? Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I believe that there hasn't been a change in the budget, necessarily, but there were unbudgeted contributions that are now budgeted for. Those are to Dechinta and College nordique. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. On page 50, the fourth line item up from the bottom says "interest." I am wondering if the Minister can speak to what this line item is. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister.

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R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. That is quite specific. Perhaps I should pass it over to the assistant deputy minister for corporate services.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Assistant Deputy Minister.

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Shannon

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have that information in front of me right now, but we can certainly track that down and get it for the Member. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. That was my last question for those pages. I am just curious as to: we don't see too many line items that say "interest" within the budget. I am just wondering what we are paying interest on. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Are there any further questions on this page? Member for Thebacha.

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Martsellos

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to make a comment and one question on Aurora College. I come, of course, from Fort Smith and the constituency of Thebacha. We are very proud of Aurora College and the campus of Fort Smith. We have a lot of incredible staff there who are very qualified who do have doctorate degrees and have a wide variety of academics who come to that college. It is not filled to capacity. The intake is extremely important to the community of Fort Smith. Aurora College has been there; that is where it started in 1969. I just want to make sure that you consider doing probably a more media and better job at making sure that the intake in those programs are looked at in a more positive way. Maybe it is because of all the talk of the polytech, that is why some of the programs have been lacking. I don't know. I know that as an MLA for Thebacha and supporting the staff and the students of that college, I would like to see more emphasis placed on the intake into the programs and utilize those beautiful facilities that we have in Fort Smith. I want you to consider that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Page 458

The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister, would you like to respond?

Page 458

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. I appreciate the Member's comments. She has been a very passionate supporter of Aurora College, as I hope everyone is. It is an institution that has reached into almost every community in the territory and has the potential to help the territory move forward into a new, prosperous future. The intake has been an issue, obviously. I know the former Member for Thebacha used to teach at that college. He said that, years ago, he'd have 30 students in his class, and he saw it dwindle year after year after year. I know people who had been there 10 years ago. They said the campus was much livelier. It is a beautiful campus. It has great student spaces. We need to get more students through those doors.

One of the things I really want to do and work with the college on is just promoting the college in general. I never knew what the inside of that college looked like. I didn't know the great facilities they had. I didn't know the quality of education you could receive there. I grew up three hours from the college. We need to do a better job getting out there and showing everyone what we have to offer and fill up those classes both in Fort Smith and in Inuvik. There are a lot of issues why we can't do that sometimes. I know I toured the college with MLA Semmler in Inuvik. There were issues about students having the proper prerequisites to get into the course and the supports needed to stay in the course. It is more than just promoting it or getting the word out. It is going to take a government-wide approach, really, a territorial approach. We need everyone to buy into education and everyone to be as passionate about the college as the MLA for Thebacha is. I am working on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Minister. Any further question on this page, labour development and advanced education? Seeing none, I am going to call the page. Education, Culture and Employment, labour development and advanced education, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $54,431,000. Does committee agree?

Page 458

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you, Members. At this point, we are going to go back to the department summary on page 29. Are there any questions on the department summary? Minister.

Page 458

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you. To answer the Member for Kam Lake's question, there were 112 graduations at the college. There are also completions, which aren't graduations. I will get those numbers for the Member by tomorrow. Thank you.

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The Chair Julie Green

Thank you for that information. Are there any comments on this page? Are we ready to complete this department? Mr. Norn.

Committee Motion 3-19(2): Tabled Document 30-19(2): Main Estimates 2020-2021 - Justice - Deferral of Further Consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice, Carried

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