Thanks, Madam Chair. The committee wishes to deal with Tabled Document 411-19(2), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022; and Committee Report 16-19(2), Report on Housing Phase One: Needs for NWT Homeowners and Private Landlords. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Does committee agree? Thank you, committee. We'll take a short recess and resume with the first item.

---Short recess

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Tabled Document 411-19(2), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. One, 2020-2022. Does the Minister of Finance have any opening remarks?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm here to present Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No 1, 2021-2022.

The supplementary estimates document proposes a total increase of $106.7 million comprised of the following major areas:

• $99.3 million for infrastructure expenditures spending for projects that were not completed in 2020-2021. This amount is fully offset by lapses and appropriations in 2020-2021.
• $2.5 million to increase the community public infrastructure funding to support communities in reducing the municipal funding gap.

That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the House? Thank you, Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the chamber. Will the Minister please introduce her witnesses.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, on your right is Jamie Koe, assistant deputy minister for the Department of Finance, and on your left is Terrence Courtoreille, the director of the Management Board Secretariat.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. I will now open the floor for general comments. Seeing no further general comments -- seeing no general comments, we'll review the supplementary estimates by department.

The committee has agreed to forego general comments on each department. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document? Committee has agreed to begin the review of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Committee will begin on page 6.

Are there any questions or comments in regards to Education, Culture and Employment?

Okay. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures, junior kindergarten to grade 12 school services, not previously authorized, $2,566,000. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. So can someone tell me, is all of this carryovers, the -- I guess it's for some school work in Yellowknife and Inuvik. All of this is carried over from the previous year? Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Sorry, Madam Chair, I'm just -- I'm on the wrong page but, yes, it is all indeed carryovers.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I raised this in previous a capital budgets. I had understood the Department of Finance was going to develop some kind of a tracking system for carryovers, because we've had growing and very significant carryovers over a period of time and that's another question I'll ask at some point, but. And the tracking system was supposed to kind of categorize the reasons for carryovers. Sometimes it's got to do with cash flow from another party or, you know, inability to get the money out the door or there's no contractors available to do the work, or weather, or whatever. Is that tracking system now in place and what are we learning from it? Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, there's certainly is a lot of work that's underway looking at broadly how the government manages carryovers and responds and reports on carryovers. So I can't say that I necessarily have a complete answer at this point. But, there are a few things in the works and perhaps I'll just pause. I'll turn it over to Mr. Koe, please, just to give an update as to what some of the most recent thinking is that we're at on that. Just knowing that, again, that some of that would have to, of course, come through -- any final decisions would have to come through of course this Assembly, as well as all -- any other process of consensus government. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Thanks, Madam Chair. So I think I -- what I can take from our guest is that we're just setting up the system now and that we'll have a clearer sense, I don't know a year from now, of what some of the reasons are for the large carryovers that we're incurring; is that I guess what I'm hearing? Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there's a number of reasons why there'd be carryovers, and I think the goal right now is that rather than having each and every department provide the rationale or the reason, you know, department by department comes to MBS. MBS is going to be creating a system whereby it will be more uniformed so that it can be reported back to the -- to this Chamber in a way that, you know, again, is -- well, is more uniform and so that rather than, you know, having -- taking a bit of the subjectivity out of it and being able to report back more clearly so that if there are in fact trends across the whole of government, that those can be identified more readily. As it is right now, and I am certainly conscious of time but I can certainly speak to some broad thoughts on why there are sometimes large carryovers on, particularly on the large projects which is then what leads to the large dollar sums that are there. And I think those trends -- some of those trends are already apparent. But what we'd like to do is, again, provide a method and a methodology of reporting that is more clear and more uniform. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member.

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I guess this gets back to some of the reasons why I actually voted against the capital budget, because I just felt it was unrealistic and there was I think almost half of the money in the capital budget was a carryover from the previous year, and I just felt that there's no way we're actually going to be able to get all this money out the door during a pandemic, and I'm concerned about getting some of this money out the door even in this sup as well. So, yeah, until we get a better tracking system and a more realistic capital budget that doesn't overspend, in my humble opinion, I have difficulty approving some of these items. But I do understand the need for some of this work to carry on, and I think that's all I've got to say for now. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Are there any further questions, comments? Seeing none, Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022, Department of Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures, junior kindergarten to grade 12 school services, not previously authorized, $2,566,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.

All right. So we'll move to supplementary estimates. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $2,566,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.

Thank you. Committee will now consider the Department of Infrastructure on page 7. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, asset management, not previously authorized, $2,208,000. Questions? Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just curious, then, if the department or the Minister can speak a little bit to, was there any incurred or extra incurred costs as a result of deferring maintenance on some of these projects? And if so, would the additional costing be included in this 2.2, or would there be potentially further additional costs down the road? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I would propose to send that over, I think, probably to Mr. Courtoreille to speak to.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Mr. Coutoreille.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm done.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) That's it. All right. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Could we just get some more information on what the deferred maintenance projects that weren't completed were and why. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Madam Chair, yes, for that level of detail, again, I'm going to send that to, if I might, to Mr. Courtoreille, please.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Mr. Courtoreille.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess this is just a comment for Finance and Infrastructure. I believe the last time I asked about our deferred maintenance deficit, it was about $462 million of deferred maintenance to get our assets up to par. I just don't understand when we have such a massive deficit, and the Department of Infrastructure has consistently, you know, stated that they need more money for deferred maintenance and if we're going to get our assets up, we need to be maintaining them. I fully support that. I just -- it becomes harder to navigate the Financial Management Board and through committee and through the Legislative Assembly to get more money for deferred maintenance if you let it lapse, and especially on these smaller projects. I don't understand how we're not getting this money out the door when our deferred maintenance budget is so enormously large. So, yeah, just a comment there to make sure we're maintaining our assets, because it only costs us a lot more money in the long run. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Madam Chair, thank you. So there is a standing amount for deferred maintenance but, you know, a concern being raised on that regard, I would suggest perhaps a comment from the Minister of Infrastructure.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I know the Member had mentioned this in a previous Assembly, and we talked about deferred maintenance programming. Yes, we have a high number of deferred maintenance and within some of our assets, you know, we look at some of the things that we're doing going forward as the Department of Infrastructure. The ongoing assessments are to be completed so we could determine the work plan for some of the upcoming years. We are in the process of developing an asset condition report card to be able to provide annual reporting on, you know, any of our assets and how we look at some of our deferred maintenance and, you know, just looking back to some of the maintenance. There are, you know, valid reasons to be able to -- to look at, you know, lengthy timelines for environmental assessments, consultation engagement process, procurement issues, and that's something the Department of Finance and Infrastructure are working on. And, you know, I'm not going to use up the Member's time talking about all the different reasons for some of our -- valid reasons for carry forward other than those are just to name a few. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Any further questions, comments under this section? Seeing none.

Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No.1, 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditure, asset management, not previously authorized, $2,208,000. Does committee agree? Okay.

Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, programs and services, not previously authorized, $8,046,000. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm just curious -- I know that the Inuvik wind project was somewhat delayed or had been uncertain at one point of whether it was going to go forward, I don't know what the best way to phrase that is. So that would probably have resulted obviously in this lapse or this continuation. I'm just curious to know how often can this money continue to be carried over from year to year under the ICIP funding which perhaps I should know as a former Infrastructure Minister. But could it continue on and what is the likelihood of the Inuvik wind project continuing on and being completed in a timely manner in which case we wouldn't be worried about lapses of funding. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I don't know the specifics on that. Perhaps I'll turn it over to -- but the Minister of Infrastructure might.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the projects -- the ICIP for this project ends in 2027; my gosh, I wish it were done then. 2027-2028. And you know, each year, Madam Chair, we do get permission from Canada to be able to do some of these carry forwards, and with that, we're able to justify some of the reasons and rationales on, you know, the struggles we did have about, you know, trying to proceed ahead with the Inuvik wind project and, you know, trying to engage the community and form the partnerships to be able to do some of this work. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm really glad to hear about the timeframe. And again, I probably should have known that and I also wish it was done in 2017 as well. I guess I just have questions a little bit about the $500,000 amounts for the two other funding pots there. I'm just curious to know if those were the contributions to get the dollars out of the federal government. Is that our -- the NWT contribution amount? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm quite confident Mr. Courtoreille knows the answer to that, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) All right. Mr. Courtoreille.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I remember sitting in the Chamber in August of 2019 when the House approved, I didn't agree with it, money for the Whati transmission line. Have we actually spent any money on this? Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, obviously if there was some carryover is required there's certainly some work yet to be done. Neither the Minister nor I were here in August of 2019, but I'd suggest, perhaps, if the Minister of Infrastructure can provide some update as to the status of the project that might be the place to go.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Oh, Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so, you know, you look at the Whati transmission line and, you know, some of the -- how it aligns under our 2030 energy strategy and, you know, it is a priority for this government to be able to look at some alternative energy solutions. And, yes, we did spend some money and, you know, we did some technical studies. We did review and update preliminary environmental studies, looking at additional traditional knowledge and some of the land use studies as well. So, yes, Madam Chair, we did do some work on this transmission line. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Can I get a commitment out of the Minister to provide a list of the studies, their cost, and could she make the studies available if I ask for them? On a confidential basis, of course. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, not knowing exactly the entirety of the studies, I'll certainly commit to get a list of what exactly has been done and confirm if there is some reason that they can't be made publicly or made confidentially available, I will provide an explanation as to why.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, one of the issues that I had with the Whati transmission line back in 2019, and remains so today, is for the cost of the project -- and I tabled documents in the last Assembly -- showed for the cost of doing the Whati transmission line, you could actually get mini hydro in three Tlicho communities for about the same cost. So why would we build this huge transmission line to one community when we could actually get sustainable alternative energy in three different communities? I just don't get it. Can the Minister tell me whether any analysis has been done around that. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So again, Madam Chair, I can't speak to what may or may not have been presented by the Member back in 2019. I can say that the Tlicho Government, I understand, is in support of this transmission project and it certainly is a part of the priorities of this government to make sure we are working with Indigenous governments when -- typically on projects that are on Indigenous lands. And, you know, I'm not sure where the disconnect is between the information that's available. So perhaps in those studies, it may well answer those questions. The information I have available to me is that in fact transmission will be much more durable and last many times much longer than what the mini hydro would which certainly factors in in terms of the costing. As well as in terms of the operations and maintenance costs, that it's much easier and much cheaper to maintain. And certainly can set the stage for other projects in the region that are hydro-based. So, you know, Madam Chair, I'll pause there. And if -- certainly, if there's more detail that we would like to get into on the specifics of the project in the review of this, I'm welcome to another question and I can turn it back to the Minister of Infrastructure. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thanks to the Minister for that level of detail. Kind of hard for me to understand why mini hydro would be any less durable or last less time than a big hydro project like Snare which actually requires a massive investment to replace turbines and all kinds of stuff. And your technical folks will know way more about the work that's required in the Snare system to keep it going, because that was built in the 1940s and is going to require a massive investment to modernize and update it again. So, yeah, if there is any more detailed work that's been done to -- you know, do some sort of comparison between mini hydro versus building a huge oversized transmission line to one community, I would love to see that. So can I get a commitment out of the Minister to search their archives and find out if that kind of analysis was actually done and share the information. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Madam Chair, this is going to be studies and information done by expertise within Infrastructure so I'll turn it back to the Minister of Infrastructure again, please.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I didn't hear it turned over to me but I would be quite happy to answer that question.

So I mean, you look at the -- the Whati transmission line, and I do want to say that it is more reliable than mini hydro, and not only that but sometimes what seems to be the cheapest option isn't always the best option. However, there were cost estimates done on a potential 1.2 megawatt mini hydro project on the Lac La Martre River about a decade ago. We look at, you know, the Tlicho government and just working with the government to be able to, you know, to look at some of the projects at the same site however conserve some of the Whati and the North Slave as well. Yeah, I think that is something that we can look at as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thanks, Madam Chair. While the Minister is looking at it, could she commit to share that information with this side of the House? Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there is, you know, when this project first started, there was a lot of work that was put into it to be able to determine whether it's feasible or not to continue with this project, and this is something that we are looking at in terms of some of the reports and the work that Infrastructure's done to be able to have a look at the projects. That's perhaps something we can look into and if we're able to share it, absolutely. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Well, I look forward to the Minister opening the vaults and sharing that information and when I get it, I'll look at it carefully and probably have lots more questions about this money because I just think that we would get a much bigger bang for our buck and help serve three communities for the same cost of doing this one project that I just think is not -- you know, there was a lot of feasibility work done on the mini hydro projects as well that was in some of the information I tabled in the last Assembly. And I just don't get why our government wants to invest in this large project that is -- I don't think it's even -- I understand the need to get a sustainable and durable power supply to Whati but I don't think this is the best way to do it in my opinion. But I'm more than happy to look at the information the Minister's going to provide to me. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. I will take that as a comment.

Any further questions, comments? Seeing none. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures). No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, programs and service, not previously authorized, $8,046,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.

Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $10,254,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.

Committee, we will now consider the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs on page 8. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, regional operations, not previously authorized, $2,500,000. Does committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I usually try to find something nice to say about my Cabinet colleagues, at least once a day. And this is a good one. So I want to compliment them for finding some money to start to close the municipal funding gap. But can someone tell me what the current, you know, calculation of the municipal funding gap is? I know there was some targets set in the mandate that Cabinet developed. So how much is the gap and how does this meet the mandate commitments and, you know, how close are we getting. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, we'll certainly see if, in fact, there's an estimate that perhaps the Department of Finance might be aware of, although I'm not sure -- I mean, again, that's not necessarily the information we would have brought on the supplementary estimates for this particular sup.

The commitment that was made in the priorities is, of course, is to reduce the funding gap by $5 million so we certainly are taking a significant step towards that with this additional $2.5 million here, even in the one-time event. But, yeah, Minister -- or sorry, Madam Chair, I'm going to have to commit to get back on an update with the numbers as to what this will do to the municipal funding gap. I don't think I have that here or not in terms of this infrastructure sup.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister.

Any further questions, comments? No? All right, Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures) No. 1, 2021-2022, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs Operation Expenditures, regional operations, not previously authorized, $2,500,000. Does committee agree?

Masi, Madam Chair. Just, I know we've touched on this with the Minister, the walk-in freezer for a whopping $150,000. Is it necessary to have a freezer? Because if there's meat that's seized from the hunters, usually it goes to the communities. It should go to the communities. If you have meat in a freezer for over a year, obviously it goes bad. And I think there was a process where they usually take footage of what they've seized from -- or taken from the hunters, and that's proof as evidence. And I'm just wondering why we need a walk-in freezer for $150,000 to store the meat that's been taken away from hunters that should be going to the communities. So I'm just curious, Madam Chair. Masi.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We need the freezer because we had over 150 -- or 140 caribou that were killed illegally in the mobile zone. Unfortunately, we can't cut up the meat and put it away. We need to have it as evidence. We've seen a court case now that they actually -- the JP actually said we have to give some caribou back and they wanted exactly what he killed. So we need the unit to be able to store the caribou, the evidence, until the court case is dealt with. Once the court case is dealt with, we then give the meat out to the communities that did not -- I repeat, did not be part of the illegal hunt. So if community A did the illegal hunt, we would give the meat to community B, C, and D. So we need the -- this $150,000 freezer to make sure that we keep the caribou that are illegally killed intact. They're cleaned out, but they're kept intact and we need to keep -- be able to put them in there. And as you're well aware, trying to put these 150 caribou into a nice, small freezer does not work. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it's very difficult to accept that. The 150 caribou is obviously stored in the freezer will not be presented in court, the actual meat. It will be stored in a freezer and freezer burnt and such, and after a year, five years, nobody will want that kind of meat. Madam Chair, for $150,000 that can create a teacher position in the community or a renewable resource officer position that can monitor these illegal hunters. I think we can go more -- we can do more with this money than an actual freezer where we can have footage of -- pictures, have the pictures presented. It's always been a case where court proceedings, evidence is always pictures. It's not actual caribou in a courtroom. So I find that hard to believe, where we're pushing for this freezer into this budget area of ENR where I feel that they should be expended elsewhere. And I -- you know, the Minister came out with some arguments of 150 illegal caribou that's been hunted but it will not be presented in a courtroom. The actual caribou meat per se, Madam Chair, so. It's very hard to justify, approving this 150,000 for a freezer that's, I don't think it's needed. We've been doing without it all these years. And, yes, there's been illegal hunt, but, you know, after we do captures of all the evidence, the pictures, the case, the reports, then give out the meat. Why sit on the meat? Like, it's badly needed in the communities. We're forced not to hunt in our own backyard and share. We have to store them until such years. I'm not sure how long. So, yeah, Madam Chair, just it's frustrating sitting here and looking at this $150,000. It can be much better spent elsewhere. Let's hire more officers. Let's hire traditional hunters to work with these ENR officers. That's better well spent than the freezer. That's my take, Madam Chair. Masi.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Minister of Finance, did you have any comment?

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I mean I certainly sympathize that it's a lot of money for what it's, you know, essentially being portrayed as being an evidence locker but, in this particular case, because they are dealing with obviously hunters, if, in fact, a case is found where the hunter may not have been hunting illegally, well then that meat needs to go back to that hunter and their family; it wouldn't necessarily get distributed to other members of other communities. So I think that's part of the challenge that is faced, and is particularly in the North Slave Region where, I understand, there are smaller freezers available for smaller -- for other communities to store meat generally. But in this case, the amount of meat that is being seized in the North Slave Region as a result of investigation processes before the resolution of the file is putting them in a situation where, you know, they don't know the resolution of the case, don't know yet who's going to have access to that meat, don't want to have wastage, and that's -- I think that's part of the reason for the need here. It's certainly not to bring meat into the courtrooms. And it's an intention to do what I think the Member was initially getting at - to not waste the meat but to make sure it goes to the right party. Thanks, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, obviously I'm not getting through to this government. I'd like to know if there's been an engagement with elders, the traditional hunters - what were their thoughts on spending this $150,000 towards a freezer? I'm not sure there's been an engagement with the traditional harvesters that go out on land every year to the area. And I go there every year. I see people hunt, and -- for their families. And so has there been any engagement with those traditional hunters? There's quite a few of them; not only from our region, from outside region too. So maybe I'll leave it at that because I'm not really getting answers that I was expecting. But has there been any engagement, Madam Chair? Mahsi.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that level of question around what ENR may have done I would say is appropriate to turn to the Minister of ENR, please.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister of ENR.

So thank you. No, we didn't go out and engage with our Indigenous elders and that to get the freezer. We are trying to make -- have a place where we can keep the evidence within -- so it doesn't melt, it doesn't get destroyed, and we can -- after the court case, then we give it out. It's not years. It's not a year. It's within a timeframe that we have the court system and we need to follow the court system. And what we found, just recently in our last court case that went in there, basically we were told we had to give back two caribou. Two caribou - exactly. We had a caribou that was missing a part and we could get charged with contempt.

I understand the frustration here, but -- I would love to not have people out there illegally hunting. We have amazing hunters out there that have done a great job. Unfortunately, we have individuals who do not hunt responsibly and we need to put these -- this meat in a freezer so that we can follow the court system and once the court system is done, within a timely manner the meat is distributed to our Indigenous partners or the communities that do not do the illegal hunt.

I understand the frustration. I'd love to say we could spend more money but we need to do it so we can do things legally. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. I only have 30 seconds here, but due to these issues or committing $150,000 towards a freezer, there hasn't been any engagement with harvesters. That's why we're questioning things here in the House. We need to be accountable, accountable government. And where does the issue lie? The issue lies with illegal hunting. Let's put our manpower towards that. Let's have a monitor mechanism, enforce that even further. That $150,000 can go towards that; that's what I'm saying. But obviously the Minister and the government feel -- doesn't feel the same way. So I'll just leave it at that. It's on the record. Masi.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to not comment on the caribou issue here. I guess -- or stepping back, you know, I think in our operations budget, we still have a bit of a problem with departments in March madness and then with our Infrastructure budgets, we seem to have an obvious problem where we can't get money out the door and we see these quite a large carryovers. And I guess, I don't want to get too much into the details, but there's $70,000 for a patrol vehicle here. How do we not manage to buy a vehicle with any -- and why does something like that have to go all the way back up to the Financial Management Board and come back to the floor of the House? I just don't understand how that can even happen, how we can't get the money out the door. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I was thinking I had the opportunity to speak a little more to -- broadly, as to why we have carryovers and how that works. But if the question is specifically about a patrol vehicle, I can certainly turn that over to Mr. Courtoreille.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Mr. Courtoreille.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'll bite. I'm wondering if the Minister can then please provide some information on carryovers, especially when, in a COVID time, we are very dependent on government finances in order to keep businesses working. And I'm also wondering if, in that explanation, the Minister can also speak to the difference between carryovers and lapses. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, thank you. So Madam Chair, I'm happy to speak to that under any context here, so -- and I know that this was raised originally by one of the other Members earlier with the description that sometimes the capital plan is, you know, described as unrealistic. But the reality is we are right now constrained by the fact that we have to do year over year appropriations so that for every project, no matter what size or how large, from buying of a vehicle up to the construction of a health centre, you know, we have to come back every year. These are -- many of these projects are not year over year contracts. Many of them are in fact going to be multi-year projects, many-year projects involving, you know, tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to their completion, so. And yet we have to come back every year and put a number in to reflect some sort of estimate of spending. And the challenging part, or one of the challenging parts of that of course, is that often, and happily, we have a lot of federal dollars that we are being funded from various funding pots out of the federal government, which then may not necessarily line up with the project itself. So it may be that the project gets four years of federal funding spread equally in portions of over those four years and we have to provide our own contribution to it when, in fact, the project is going to be only a small amount spent in the first year, a lot spent in the second and third, and then a small amount spent as it's wrapping up in the fourth year. But the amount that's not being spent in that first year simply gets carried forward to when it does get spent. So some of this problem, some of this challenge, really is just the fact of how the projects are unfolding and then they, you know, wind up getting carried over to reflect when the work's actually getting done because it's a big project and it takes time to get going. I think I hit all the highlights there, Madam Chair. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Any further questions, comments under this? Seeing none, I will call that page.

Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Environment and Natural Resources, capital investment expenditures, wildlife and fish, not previously authorized $1,314,000. Does committee agree?

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. You know, and I get -- I understand the building of infrastructure climate in the North and that it is very difficult and that the federal government flows on multi-year funding. I don't understand the software climate in the government. But as far as I can tell, information systems shared services cannot seem to get its projects done on time and on budget and there's $7 million here to purchase software. So I don't know how we can blame COVID or a barging system or anything else. So can I just get a bit of an explanation of why we are seeing a lot of these programs and softwares, which I'm quite excited for, further carried over? And I know a couple of these are far from being done. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so I am also very excited about a lot of these projects but I will say it's not a simple matter of purchasing software the way I might go down and get a new Microsoft Outlook or whatever other brand one might choose to use. These are projects that involve going back to individual departments, and often multiple departments, in order to determine the needs, in order to bring everything together in terms of responding to the various needs, the data needs, converting data. You know, I'm seeing that having, in many occasions as the Minister responsible, gone back to our chief information officer and ask for detailed explanations project by project as to the status and what's gone wrong and why it's not being advanced as quickly as I might like. And as any one of us might like. But, you know, because it's not a simple matter of just going out and turning on a switch. There's a large amount of data that is under old systems that needs to be converted in some cases. There's translation issues in some cases. And, you know, in other instances, there simply are opportunities that come up to -- I mean, one example I might give actually would be under the -- with respect to the Mineral Resources Act and work that's happening there and trying to make sure that the regulatory system is ready to go. So I mean, I've given a few explanations. I think there's enough time, Madam Chair. I might just suggest if I could send it to Mr. Courtoreille, who I know had some of the details about different projects and if he could speak again, just generally, to the ISSS projects and some of the reasons for individual delays. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I struggle sometimes to understand the whole information system shared services and the IT world, but I also struggle to understand why it moves so slowly sometimes. I guess I'd like to narrow in a little here on the Mineral Administration Registry system, the MARS system. My understanding is that the $1.2 million carried over here is actually total of something about 4.5 million for our new mineral registry system. Can I get an update on when that will be complete and, more specifically, when we will have online MAP staking in the NWT. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am also quite keen to pay attention to this particular project. And I will admit I don't necessarily have my ITI binders open in front of me at the moment, but. So let me commit to ensuring that we give a full update to the House with respect to the MARS system program. I believe, actually now, part of the delay here is in fact to make it something's that's even better, so there were delays. There were delays in terms of preparing the regulations from under the Mineral Resources Act last spring as a result of COVID. And then, you know, hiring challenges again last spring and summer when the focus of hiring was with respect to responding to the pandemic. Things are already in place, people are in place, and the work to deliver on the regulatory framework that would -- wherein this system would have to fit is now underway. So it's moving along and as far as an updated timeline, again I do have it, just not in front of me. So I will certainly commit to providing that. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I'm going to try and get one more commitment out of the Minister. We have spoken before about the GNWT online services program. I see phase two is in here. There are a number of great services. We are moving online and I know that has been delayed. Can we get a commitment out of the Minister to get an update on the GNWT online services program? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I do have a date in my head but I don't want to get it wrong. Let me turn it to Mr. Koe and see if he has that date in front of him, please.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I am happy to see what appears to be the end of the saga of the Norman Wells health centre. We are settling for nearly -- for $4,750,000. I don't even know where to get with this one. Do we have some lessons learned for the Norman Wells health centre; specifically, what caused the delays? I know there was a bit of a debate about how many change orders the GNWT was responsible for but I'm just trying to figure out how we make sure we don't see settlements in our infrastructure budgets again for $5 million. So there's some lessons to be learned out of the Norman Wells health officer settlement. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there certainly was, I think, quite a bit of an analysis done to understand the reasons for the delay in this particular case. And that is parts of what went in to, of course, to the process of determining what the appropriate settlement might to be and how the GNWT might approach the problem, first, in the front end of resolving the matter, but also then using that information going forward. So I will again go back to the Department of Infrastructure and the Department of Health and Social Services to confirm how much of that can be provided to the Members confidentially. Obviously, some of that information would have been prepared in the course of litigation preparation. So I just want to confirm that it's not privileged and if it's not, we will certainly get more information to the Member.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I feel that there is some public interest here in reiterating the facts here that Clark Builders sued us for $16 million on the Norman Wells health centre, and I believe that is public knowledge; there's a court case. And then we settled for what is now appeared to be $4.75 million. And a lot of the delays, my understanding, were on the GNWT and a number of change orders and disagreements with the contractor. And I believe the Office of the Fire Marshal also caused some number of those delays, which we are also in court with. I don't yet believe that has been resolved, so. I guess I would like a commitment out of the Minister to perhaps provide some more information on what are the lessons coming out of the building of the Norman Wells health centre and long-term care facility. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think that getting into exactly who was to blame is delving far too closely into what may well be subject to a settlement agreement signed with another party on behalf of -- between the GNWT. So, again, I'm going to take pause on this one but that's not to say that there's not lessons to be learned from projects that run delays and that that opportunity isn't available to the GNWT, just that this might not be the shining moment where we can do that because we have signed an agreement that comes with -- you know, an agreement with the other party to maintain some confidentiality. So I'll go back and look at whether this is a chance to get into the determination as to who owed who what and why; or if, in fact, there's a way to share that with Members with -- not to share with public; or if, in fact, a more general example might be better served for that purpose. The purpose, of course, being to understand with when there's an overage, when there's a delay, why are some of the reasons for that. So that is certainly one that we can look into. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

No further questions, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, it's my understanding -- this is quite a large number here, the $22 million for all these projects. However, with the substantive amount being the $13 million of the health centre in Tulita, which I know for a fact is being carried over because of inability to get in and build during COVID, I'm assuming, or there's issues there. So could the Minister of the department maybe speak a little bit to is this normal for this amount of money, or is this generally a lot due to the inability to spend money last year during COVID? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, with respect to the specifics of this amount for Health, then that may be a question for the Minister of Health. But I think where I'm going here is in terms of just the overages -- or the carryovers generally, then for that, Madam Chair, if I might turn it back over to Mr. Koe to speak to to what extent these carryover are, again, within a range of, quote unquote, "normal". Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I see that Stanton Legacy building renovations is also in here - a much smaller number, that one's at $3 million. I'm just wondering if the Minister can speak to the timeline on that building and when they expect the building renovations to be complete. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Minister of Health can speak to that one, please.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister for Health and Social Services.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the renovations are ongoing; now they're expected to take about another 14 or 15 months. After that, there will be a period of commissioning the building and patients will arrive at the beginning of the -- in the spring of 2023. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. So the commissioning of the building, what's entailed in that and that is about a year-long process, is it? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you. I don't know what's involved in commissioning but there is a six-month period allocated for it. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

No, thank you very much, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) No further questions? Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2021-2022. Department of Health and Social Services, capital investment expenditures, administrative and support services, not previously authorized, $117,000. Does committee agree?

Thank you, Madam Chair. I recently saw the announcement that we got a contractor for the new fish plant in Hay River; I'm excited to see that. I've heard less about the remote fishery collection stations, and I see the million dollars is being carried over here. Can I just get an update on where those are at and when we can expect to see that work start? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this construction work is expected in the current fiscal year 2021-2022. I think with some expectation that it may, indeed, be even as early as this fall but certainly within the next -- within the 2021-2022 fiscals, as I've said will be getting started. And it's a project that has involved -- the collection stations are involving some discussions with communities around the lake, including the City of Yellowknife, Fort Resolution, Fort Resolution Metis Council, the Deninu Kue First Nation, and so the last year was a bit delayed. One of the other delays -- I shouldn't say of course, one of the other delays was with respect to the fact that we do -- the Department of Fisheries and Oceans federally is responsible for what is going on on the waters and there's been some need to have inspections done with them. But that -- I believe we have that all resolved as well. So, yes, that's the reason for the carryover. This is yet another one that has a bit of an echo veil on it too, but it is progressing and at this point, now progressing to complete. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Glad to hear that, and I'm glad to hear we're gone through the DFO inspection process. I know that was not easy for a couple aspects of this. I guess the last public information I have kind of seen on this is in regards to the entire fishery revitalization plan which sets out some idea for the remote collection stations but based on what the Minister said, there seems to be quite a bit of progress. And I guess I'm just looking for a commitment that we get, you know, some public information about where exactly they're going and how large they are and when we can expect to see them operate. I think this is much of good news though and would like to be further updated. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, Madam Chair, I am happy to provide that update. It's -- I mean, I'm speaking to it because I've been receiving, as Minister of ITI, updates regularly and, in fact, only just quite recently on some of this. So let me put that together and I'm happy to commit to getting more information. It is a good news story and, yeah, there's been some delays but it does seem as though some of that's been worked through now with respect to how to manage the inspections or the requirement of DFO. So we'll certainly commit to getting that out.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the fish plant, was there any cost increase because of building costs that maybe have occurred since the original budget? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I don't have the financial details here, and I'm not sure if either of the witnesses might have it. There were original cost overages from the original time when the project was first conceived. But in terms of the wording of this contract, I mean, that, I believe, was spoken to at last year's -- or at a previous occasion in reviewing the infrastructure plans. So there hasn't been any changes in the last, you know, several months as far as moving the project forward. But as far as the original costs, the changes in costs, I'll -- I know there were changes to the costs, and I just don't remember what the numbers were. So I'll see if Mr. Koe might know that. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just because of rising cost in material and that, do we have a contingency built in to offset any additional material costs or labour? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, my understanding is there tends to be contingencies often built in, so I expect that this is no different in this particular project. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And with respect to the -- I guess Arcand got awarded the main contract. What amount -- are we looking at having, a lot of majority I guess northern contractors participate in this as well or even local contractors out of Hay River? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this is another part of, I think, a good news story with the movement on the Great Slave Lake for fishery revitalization because, yes, my understanding is that Arcand is in fact -- put their materials forward with a lot of local contractors all working together. So perhaps when I provide the update broadly speaking about the Great Slave Lake fishery, that I will see what we can provide on this as well. Again, I think this is actually a good news story of a company that's come together and really looked at how to use northern suppliers in their bid. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the remote collection stations, are they going to be in communities, closer to communities, or will they be looking at some of the older existing stations they have around the lake, revitalizing those? Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the choices of where the collection stations are to go is a decision that is I think really looking to the fishers themselves to drive that decision-making. And that's where there is now a working group that is being set up and has begun to meet for those who are fishers, again all around the lake. So that exactly on questions like that, that consultation with them, that they are the ones that are actually driving where those sites go. You know, keeping in mind, of course, the role of DFO in that and the role of individual communities that may have -- may or may not be fishers or -- fisher, have many fishers themselves. So, you know, I need to take a pause there and go back but, again, I know that the working group's been meeting and that they are meeting specifically to have these kinds of conversations. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I'm pleased to see that this project's finally going to move ahead and hopefully it will do something for the fishing industry and, you know, hopefully we get some sales not only in the territories but in southern Canada and outside of Canada as well. Thank you, Madam Chair. No questions.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you, Member. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am also got to throw in my hat to the fishery collection station conversation. One of those areas being looked is the -- is in my riding. It's at the end of the Robertson Road, I believe, at the Con Mine area. I don't know that I have a lot of questions around this but while I have the Minister here, I'm just going to advocate for my constituents, that there is concern about increased traffic in that area. Currently, we are trying to determine at times whose responsibility is it for that area, given that it is still a commercial mine lease is my understanding. And so I often find people between the city and Ministers pointing fingers at whose responsibility is what so I have a lot of concern here about how the determination of that location is going to go. I understand leading it around in different parts with communities and having a different conversation, but I think the conversation with the City of Yellowknife and therefore, by extension, the community of Great Slave is different. And I'm concerned that, to hear that the Members -- or sorry, that the city is being itself engaged but I'm not sure my constituents themselves in that area are being engaged. And I just want to ensure that they have a chance to express their feelings about that as well. And then I also want to know who's going to fix the docks that currently needs work but that might be a different discussion. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER) Thank you. Minister.