I now call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Merci, Monsieur le President. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 723-19(2), 2023-2024 Capital Estimates, with Health and Social Services and Industry, Tourism and Investment and Committee Report 33-19(2) and Bill 52. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Thank you, committee. We will take a short recess. Mahsi.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 723-19(2) Capital Estimates 2023-2024. Committee, we will now consider the Department of Health and Social Services. Does the Minister of Health and Social Services wish to bring witnesses into the Chamber?
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Mahsi. Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.
Would the Minister please introduce the witnesses.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my left is Kyla Kakfwi Scott, the assistant deputy minister. And on my right is Perry Heath, the director of Infrastructure.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does the committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Committee, the Department of Health and Social Services begins on page 38. We will defer the department totals and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning at page 39, with administrative and support services, with information item on page 40.
Health and Social Services, administrative and support services, infrastructure investments, $500,000. Does the committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Committee, please turn to page 41, health and social programs, with information item on pages 42 and 43. Health and social services programs -- give me a moment, please.
Committee, going back to page 41, health and social programs and information items on page 42 and 43, are there any questions? Mr. Johnson.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions are regarding the wellness and recovery centre which I believe is the shelter that is planned to be built. Well, I guess it was originally planned to be built kind of by the old St. John's Ambulance there on what I believe is -- I don't know the streets in Yellowknife. So can I just confirm -- well, whether that is the location or whether -- I know there was a request from the City of Yellowknife to put it in the current location of the day shelter where the trailers are but whether we have decided on a location? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you. We met with the City of Yellowknife. They've expressed an interest in having the shelter located near the old Northern Frontier Visitors Centre, which is where the current day shelter is. There's been no decision yet on that location. There are a number of pros and cons to each of the locations in consideration. Thank you.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Can I get -- well, this says 2024-2025 for completion, you know, which I assume would mean construction, you know, next fiscal, probably pretty soon. Can I just get an update of when the estimated completion for this project is or whether we're on track and on time, on budget. Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the budget for this project has changed and the completion date has changed, and I'll ask my colleague Perry Heath to provide some additional detail. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's our hope that once the location is finalized, we'll be in a position to finalize the design on this facility early in the next fiscal year, or potentially even late this fiscal year. We would expect that, again, once the location is determined, it will be a duration of approximately 24 to 36 months to go through construction completion.
Again, the Minister did make discussions about the overall cost of this project, and we are currently in conversations with Canada under the ICIP program for funding and awaiting decision. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, okay, I heard, you know, up to 36 months for construction. So I imagine that this -- even this 2024-2025 in the capital estimates here is probably ambitious. So it seems there's some issues with the cost. Is there any hope I can get an estimate of what this building is going to cost? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you. There are a lot of unknowns at this point because the location has not been fixed. We know a lot about the 51st Street location, but the Northern Frontier Visitors Centre location has a number of challenges. And for additional detail, I'll ask Mr. Heath to fill in.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's no secret to anybody that the Northern Frontier Visitors Centre site is probably one of the most complex geotechnical locations in Yellowknife. There is one -- in one location, there's probably three or four feet of permafrost. In another location, there's probably 110 feet of permafrost. As you can probably imagine, that makes it very difficult to come with a construction estimate when you are trying to figure out the lengths of the piles. We would have to do an extensive investigation before we could finalize exactly what that ledger would be. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you. I see that there's potential for ICIP funding, and I heard that we were making a decision there. Can I get a somewhat answer of how much ICIP funding we're expecting, and if we can't get a dollar amount, is it a 75 percent expectation of capital funding? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the issues are, as Mr. Heath said, that without knowing which location is the final choice then it's very difficult to estimate the project cost but this is a 75/25 project.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Always happy to hear 75/25, 75 cent federal infrastructure projects, especially for social infrastructure. That's a good job if we can accomplish that. I guess I see that there is $26 million for large capital projects. You know, can someone tell me how much money that the department is currently asking the Assembly for presently? I get we don't have a final cost but my understanding is by asking for this money, we're going to go borrow it for a project that has not secured federal funding, has not selected a location, and whose estimated completion date is inaccurate in the document in front of me. So how much money is the department currently asking us for? Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you. This project was recent -- it was originally considered to cost in the range of $10 million. The new cost is unknown. I agree that that may not be an easy sell for the federal government but until the location is sorted out, we are not able to firm up the cost. Thank you.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you. And my understanding is that we've actually awarded some contracts and some of this has already been tendered for the original location. Do we have a number of how much money we have already spent to date on this project?
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. It's true, there's a design contract that has been awarded for the 51st Street location. And for additional information on that, I'll ask Mr. Heath to provide.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we went through a public procurement and hired a local architecture firm to do the design. The estimated value of that design contract is $650,000. It was awarded publicly, and we are approximately one-third spent.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yeah, thank you. You know, when you spent a couple hundred thousand dollars on design for a building in one location and then the whole other location goes up, you know, it risks hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxpayer money being spent on nothing. But I guess can we just get an update on when we expect a final decision to be made on location? Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you. We own the land. We have a technical assessment and an environmental assessment of the 51st Street location. The design was initiated on that basis. The city has asked us to reconsider the location, which we've said we're going to do. But at this point there are quite a number of unknowns, such as whether we can access the land to do feasibility studies, geotechnical studies, what it would cost to purchase that land, what kind of redesign would be necessary as a result of that purchase, so there are some substantial unknowns at this point. And it's not entirely within our control. The land is for sale by a private individual and access to the land is up to him. Thank you.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Mahsi. I beg committee's indulgence; if I can just have a minute.
Mahsi for that. Ms. Nokleby.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, could I just get a clarification that the GNWT does not own the land that the current visitors centre is on -- or sorry, not the visitors centre but the current location of the -- and I'm going to call it the wrong shelter, which the temporary shelter that was on the site of the old visitors centre; we don't own that land? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So just a little bit of a point of clarification. The Northern Frontier Visitors site is Commissioner's land. The property directly adjacent to the Northern Frontier Visitors site, which is more favourably geotechnically, is the site that, to achieve the same goals as being located on Northern Frontier Visitors site but not be on one that is as geotechnically complex, our preference would be to secure that piece of property. And we do not own that property, it is privately-held. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you. So it's fair to say if we choose the location of the temporary shelter now, we would be looking to purchase the lot next to it and expand over that, sort of do a lot -- and I see a nodding so I don't bother to go back.
That being said, my question actually was around the geotech for the old visitors centre lot. It does kind of change now that I know that. But is there a potential to use old reports from when they were looking at the geotechnicals because the visitors centre was, you know, sinking or jacking up out of the ground, and I know they did some investigation at the time. So is there a possibility of doing a less intensive geotechnical by doing a bit of a desktop study and incorporating the older geotechnical reports? Thank you.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have looked at those reports and went through extensively looking at that. The complication is the foundation system utilized previously was not successful and so the rationale and methodology that was employed in previous reports from previous designs could be determined as slightly vulnerable. The technology around building and in securing foundations in permafrost, as the Member is probably acutely aware, has evolved in the last few years, and if we were to develop on that site we would want to use the most recent and best technology to do it, which would require us to do new geotechnical studies. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you. Which would be great news for all my former colleagues there that would love to get that work. But now that I am aware that it would be involving the purchase of the lot next door, I have to caution or just a bit of a comment is that there are two contaminated sites right in that location. Both the Esso -- old Esso location and the old YK Motors, there is no way that the YK Motors site would not be contaminated due to the fact of the presence of the old gas station, which I know that I'm just speaking to the -- what the department already knows but thought it might be worthwhile clarifying. However, that being said, I do prefer the location being over there and not at the 51st Street. And I just would I guess want to make a comment that I don't think that the studies done on the 51st Street lot, out of that $650,000 pot, would actually be necessarily a waste. At some point the GNWT would look to be using that as an asset -- a site for a building of some sort or some sort of development, and therefore, any studies we're doing in our core to, you know, better characterize what the ground conditions are of Yellowknife is not a waste in my opinion. So that is more of a comment. And I don't think I have any further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I guess, first of all, congratulations to MLA Johnson. If you are a Yellowknifer and you don't know street names, it means you're properly acclimatized to be a Yellowknifer.
My question is for the Minister in regards to -- I just want an idea of why the Department of Health and Social Services is requesting money for a capital project that they don't really have kind of secure handle on what location's going to be used, what design's going to be used, when it will be completed, or what budget they're going to be requesting, given that this does not fall in line now with the new kind of capital budgeting processes outlined by the Finance Minister where, really, they're switching to wanting to be able to only borrow money or use money or put money in the capital plan that is actually going to be used. And so I'm just wondering why the department of health is putting this money in here rather than, first, I guess gaining answers to these questions and then coming back with either during next year's budgeting cycle or with a supplementary appropriation for funds once they have more answers. Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes. There has been some investment in this project already. We thought we had a secure location and a secure budget for it. But much has changed in the last year. And so that's my general thought on that question. But I'll ask the assistant deputy minister if she would like to add some additional information.
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Kakfwi Scott
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is, as the Minister said, it's a plan that we have had in place and on the books. New things have come up as considerations; one of them being the impacts of COVID on supply chain and pricing and things like that. So a budget that we had in place for a project is something that we need to take a look at. And in the meantime, we've had a request to look at an alternate location. We feel we have a responsibility not to dismiss that request out of hand. We need to give it its due diligence and consider it. It is a complicated request, and so it's taking some time and there are lots of variables. But we are going to do that part so that we're not proceeding with a plan without having taken the time to hear that there might be other considerations.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, my next question for the Minister is in regards to the request for a tractor for Hay River. And I just want to understand why a health authority would need to purchase a tractor and have one, I guess, of their own rather than potentially hiring a local contractor who owns a tractor to do whatever they're going to do with that tractor. And I'm just wondering if I can get more information on that. Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you we're replacing the existing tractor rather than adding a new tractor. But I'll ask Mr. Heath if he wants to add anything more.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The description of "tractor" might be a little bit more complex. This is basically a small unit that they use to keep the sidewalks and things clean and they -- it's on like an as-and-when basis. Having a local contractor on the beck and call of every given minute has proven to be complex, and it's been cost efficient, or I would say more service-oriented for them to have their own unit. The existing one is worn out and as the Minister said, we're simply replacing it through our evergreen program. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. No, I appreciate that. I had visions of nursing staff on top of giant front-end loaders, so thank you for that.
My next question, I'm wondering if somebody can help me out here. I just simply don't know what 1300 BGSM or 1600 BGSM stands for. So I'm just wondering if somebody can help me out with that one. Thank you
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, I think that's a size by volume. And Mr. Heath can tell you what that means in something more commonly used like square feet.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Building gross square metres I believe is the acronym. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Any further questions from committee? I don't see any. We'll go back to page 41, Health and Social Services, programs, infrastructure investments, $28,415,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Mahsi, committee. Committee, please turn to page 44, long-term and continuing care services, with information item on page 45. Any questions from committee? I think we were accommodating two Members that I already saw them heading to the airport. They're heading home. So that's the reason we put this up here. If no one has any questions, then I will move on with this. Ms. Nokleby.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm just curious to know, I note that we have four projects here under the long-term care facility; three are in planning. One is actually, I'm guessing, into construction. Can I get an idea of how much is going towards the planning and how much is going towards that construction Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you I said to the Members for Thebacha and Hay River South that they could forward their questions to me. So these projects -- two of these projects are impacted by the flooding that occurred last year and this year. They were planned for areas which flooded in the respective years. So that has put some uncertainty into the budget because the location is not certain. The one that is furthest ahead at this point in planning is the Inuvik long-term care. And I'll ask Mr. Heath to provide the specific answer to the Member's question. Thank you
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our corporate capital planning process allocates, and this is not a hard and fast number, but approximately 5 percent of the overall capital budget in terms of planning and that's a needs assessment operational plan, functional program, schematic design, and we go as far to getting a class C cost estimate. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you for that. I guess then my next question is, it's my understanding there's been some issues with the ground for the site in Inuvik. I'm just wondering if that's going to then drive up the costs for the planning for that project, or are we able to accommodate that in house? Thank you
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So the overall planning budget in capital estimates is sufficient to do the planning for the Inuvik long-term care facility. We are piggyback off some studies happening with the hospital. There's geotechnical work going on there. We're doing that work in concert with this facility. And so basically any recommendations that end up addressing some of the foundations issues elsewhere in the community will be applied to this facility, and that's how we're able to accommodate. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you I just want to say I actually am really glad to hear that. When I was doing geotechnical work before, because the drill has to be mobilized into communities and that's -- Inuvik's likely they drive it in, but in other areas up in the Mackenzie Delta -- or Mackenzie Valley, you have to barge them in. So I just -- kudos to the department for trying to, like, you know, make use of drill time and engineers that have already been mobilized to sites. So I'd like to see more of that. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm done.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I am just kind of -- now we have this new approach to budgeting. You know, if you look at the last three years, we spent $30 million, $40 million, $40 million, $7 million this year. So there's been a radical drop in spending on long-term care. And then I look over at the list of projects, and three are in planning. But -- which I get is why there's way less money here, I think we kicked some for planning. But can I just get a sense of the -- so this current fiscal that we're in right now, we're spending $40 million, and I assume some of the previous fiscal's carried over. But what are we actually building right now for long-term care? Like, what would that $40 million in the current fiscal be getting us? Is it all the Hay River facility that I see here being the only one that's not in planning? Thank you
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you as I mentioned, the site of the Hay River long-term care, which is the old HH William's site, flooded in the spring. And so there's a question about whether that site is still suitable for building the long-term care on. So that location is now in question. In 2021, the location that we had planned for the Fort Simpson long-term care flooded. So that location is also in question. So that's one of the reasons that these schedules have been adjusted. I'll just ask Mr. Heath if he would like to add anything further to the Hay River project, which was the project we thought was furthest along. Thank you
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The majority of money currently being expended in Hay River is actually for the demolition of the HH Williams facility. We went to a public RFP, awarded a contract to a local contractor for approximately -- I believe it was $2 million for that work. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yeah, thank you. You know, I -- sorry, this is perhaps me not understanding how exactly capital estimates working. But, you know, we have $41 million for the fiscal we're presently in. I assume we are trying to spend $41 million in this fiscal. But I don't understand how we get to that number if some of it is demolition, and there's risk planning. Is there some other major project here? Or I guess also what I'm asking is are we going to spend $41 million this year on long-term care, or is that number just completely unrealistic at this point? Thank you
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, I think the missing piece here is the Stanton Legacy Project, which is partly a long-term care project. And so I'll ask Mr. Heath to provide additional detail on the spending on that project. Thank you
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The overall construction budget that spans over multiple years for legacy was awarded for the sum of approximately $47 million. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yes, okay. I think that does answer my question. So, and the reason I don't see that here is because the estimated completion for that is this fiscal, and we are on budget and on time for Stanton Legacy opening at the end of this fiscal and spending this $40 million or whatever the number -- 40 something million dollars that it costs, is that correct? Thank you
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, the estimated completion time by the contractor is the end of this calendar year. There will need to be a commissioning period, and then the various components that are occupying the building - the extended care unit, the long-term care beds on the third floor, and the Frame Lake clinic, audiology, and rehab on the main floor. Those will be phased in the next fiscal year. So just as a reminder, this is the capital budget. So there will be O and M costs that will come in the form of a supplementary appropriation. Thank you.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. So I was on the same page, sorry, as MLA Johnson. I won't fully repeat what he has said but my concern is that three out of four of these long-term care facilities are in planning phases. The planning phase is estimated completion of 2025 -- like, the year that is under estimated completion, that's the estimated completion of the planning phase, is that correct?
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So for Fort Simpson, Fort Smith, and Inuvik, what's projected is the completion of planning which encompasses needs assessment, operational plan, function program, and schematic design, and class C cost estimate. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much. And sorry, I'm having a hard time hearing Mr. Heath at times. I don't know if we can turn up his microphone; it could just be my ears, so I apologize for that.
So my concern is that given that this is at the planning stage, not the actual facilities will be done at the estimated completion time that, really, the soonest we're going to have additional long-term care facilities in the Northwest Territories would be the 2027-2028 fiscal year, which is another six years away from now. And a lot of these facilities are already late, I guess, or have been pushed back from when they were expected. And I have concerns about this given that one of the priorities of this Assembly was aging in place. And the infrastructure deficit of being able to properly care for our elders right now is huge. And so given as well that MACA has made a commitment of completing new flood maps this fall, is there any opportunity to advance some of these estimated completion timelines in order to see additional facilities in our territory sooner? Thank you
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you the Stanton Legacy building will have 72 beds of -- 74 beds of long-term care. They won't all open at once; they're not all needed at once. But we anticipate opening 17 of them in the next fiscal year. And the building will be ready to have more beds phased in as necessary. The project in Hay River in particular, had there not been a flood this year, would have continued on to a nearer completion. But unfortunately, we have to wait until we know what the new flood maps look like before we select a location for that. Thank you
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Yeah, thank you very much Mr. Chair. I guess in here, and I know this isn't new information to the department, but I think it need to be said, is, especially with the state of the territory right now, our elders and having elders in communities is so important to community members and to the mental health of community members and the mental health of our elders and to the quality of life of our elders. And so I think this is -- making pathways for elders to be able to age in place is incredibly important, and this is a piece of that puzzle. And so I really do encourage the department to please move these along, I guess, as much as possible.
And in regards to Stanton Legacy opening up and the beds opening up, can the Minister just confirm what day they expect to be able to move their first residents into Stanton Legacy? Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm not able to give a date at this time for the first resident to move in. What I can say is that I can provide waiting list information. The largest waiting list presently is in the Beaufort Delta. It's 15 individuals. So there is a waitlist I think in almost every location, except for Fort Smith, of somewhere between one and 15 individuals. So obviously we are interested in having the long-term care facilities available.
Our commitment to aging in place has as much to do with home care and supports provided for people to stay in their own homes as it does to put them into facilities which may or may not be in their communities. So this is a continuum of care that we're trying to provide here, from supports in people's homes to when they need 24-hour care to go into long-term care. Thank you
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Yeah, thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate that from the Minister. I want to understand a little bit more given that it seems like Hay River's our best bet for long-term care outside of Yellowknife. I want to understand from the Minister if their intent is to move the facility because of where the flood waters came to, or is it to redesign, and if the Minister can confirm if the flood waters came up to where the existing location was expected to be, or what specifically is needing to change because of the flood this year. Thank you.
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Heath
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There's two predominant dimensions that's influencing the decision around it. The first one is the original HH Williams. The base level floor was about three feet under water. And so if we had built a new facility, as we originally intended, the electrical, mechanical, kitchen, and all the services, would have been three feet under water. So very clearly, we wouldn't be able implement with that design.
The other element was that facility was without services for nine days, and when I mean services, I mean power, water and sewer. It's impossible to maintain continuity of a service program if you don't have water or sewer and power for a duration of nine days. The facility was evacuated. It was originally evacuated in part to the health centre, which remained operational, and then eventually people were evacuated outside of the community.
So our concern is striking a balance between moving forward with a project on a schedule that it's our preference to do it on, and striking that balance between building a facility that we can guarantee runs 365 days a year, and we do not have to evacuate. So that's the challenge we're up against. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, I just -- I would be remiss if I didn't say anything. You know, I've been asking for elders facilities in my communities, quality of life for my elders, being shipped to Inuvik, not being able to see family. You know, it's pretty tough for the elder and pretty tough on the family. And I made a comment -- some elder made a comment to me. He said the only time I'll see my whole family again is when I go home in a box. That's not right. Unacceptable. Quality of life for our elders, double standard. Double standard for southern to northern. I'm really -- I'm happy that you guys in the communities that are getting more beds but Inuvik getting more beds, that's just taking members from my riding. Moving them to Inuvik when we already pay a high cost of living for travel for the airline tickets. They're over $1,000. It's easier to -- it's cheaper to travel from Yellowknife to Edmonton return than it is to get a one-way ticket from Inuvik to Sachs Harbour. It's really a double standard. I really want this -- before, you know, we should be planning smaller units going into the communities where they're -- we're partnering up with the community corporation to make -- try to make it for all elders for aging in place and not having such a double standard. And it's really -- it's disheartening because I go to the hospital in Inuvik, I see my elders there that want to go home. Sad. But then we go -- before there were 48 beds, now there's 24. I really am disheartened. Double standard for the northern people of my riding in Nunakput. Double standard for my elders. Until something's done to work together with this department and with this government, they should be ashamed of themselves on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a comment.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Mahsi for that, and bringing that up too. I'll allow the Minister to reply if she would like. Mahsi.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. And I appreciate that the Member is frustrated with not having a long-term care facility in his constituency. In fact, most constituencies in the NWT don't have long-term care facilities because there needs to be a certain size of population to make them cost effective.
What we've tried to do in places like Nunakput is provide home care. We provide it everywhere. But with a special focus in places that are remote, like the communities of Nunakput, to increase home care to enable people to stay at home. But there comes a point where the elders need 24-hour nursing. And that's what tips them into long-term care.
To talk more about the department's philosophy in situating long-term care, I'd ask the assistant deputy minister of corporate services and cultural safety, Ms. Kakfwi Scott, to comment, please.
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Kakfwi Scott
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think it's -- it's hard to talk just about capital because, of course, buildings don't exist outside of the programs and services that we offer in them. Long-term care is a really important part of being able to provide the right care and services for elders. It's not the only thing that we are working towards. There's a lot of engagement taking place right now on the development of an elders' strategy. There's been lots of work on the continuum of care for elders and seniors. Aging in place really means that, as much as possible, we want people to be staying in their home communities. We want them to be in their own homes with their own families and to have access to the supports and services that they need to stay there. When people get to a point where they do need that 24-hour nursing care, where they need to have supports that can only be provided in a facility, it's important that those facilities are in place and that those beds are ready for people. So it's all connected to each other. It's important that all of that work is moving forward together and that we're really thinking about where there are gaps in the continuum of services and how we can change our work to do that.
It's also something that we are developing, the department's work in cultural safety that is important. If people do have to leave their home communities, if they need to be further away from their families in order to receive the health care that they might need, that we're doing that as much as possible in a culturally safe way and making sure that people still have connections to the things that are important to them about their families and their cultures.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you for that. You know, home care, it works good until it's so much pressure on the family that they have to stay up 24 hours a day taking care of their mother or their father or their loved one that they're not going to want to let go. They're going to push themselves right to the very end until they have no choice, until they burn themselves out. And that's the kind of -- that's where we're from. That's where I come from. We don't want to let our elders go because once they're in Inuvik they're not going to come home.
Like, you know, working, I did talk to the Minister about this. I mean, I'm kind of off topic but I did talk to the Minister about this, by working together with the community corporations and the communities and with the IRC. And then COVID hit, it fell short. But now we got to get to that next level to provide four beds, or four or five beds into a community and be able to service everybody to age in place. And, you know, it's -- if I know with the federal government, with Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, with our government, I think we could build a four or five-bed facility in each community of Ulukhaktok and Paulatuk and Tuk and being able to take care of our elders in place. And I hope we could go down that road, Mr. Chair. Thank you
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
I didn't hear any question there, so we'll take it as a comment. Mahsi. Any further questions from committee? All right.
Health and Social Services, on page 44, long term and continuing care services, infrastructure investments, $6,989,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Ronald Bonnetrouge
Thank you, Members. We'll now return to the department summary found on page 38. Health and Social Services, 2023-2024 Capital Estimates, $35,904,000. Does committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.