Thanks, Mr. Chair. Committee would like to consider Tabled Document 561-19(2): Main estimates 2022-2023, with Environment and Natural Resources and the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. We will take a short recess and resume with ENR. Take a break. Mahsi.

---SHORT RECESS

I call the meeting to order. We are still dealing with ENR. I'll ask the Minister if he's got any witnesses to bring into the House.

Yes, I do, sir.

Sergeant-at-Arms, can you please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Mahsi.

Would the Minister please introduce his witnesses. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, on the far right is deputy minister Erin Kelly and closest to me is Jessica St. Arnaud, the director of finance. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Committee, we were finished forest management yesterday. So today we're starting with water management and monitoring beginning on page 87, with information item on page 90. And I open it up for questions. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. So this is the section of the ENR budget where transboundary waters matters are found, and I just have one question, to start with, about page 89. There's these contributions. It shows transboundary waters as a line item there back in 2020-2021. It was $414,000, and now it's being become proposed at 185. Can I just get an explanation as to what happened in that previous year. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.

For that detail I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

Ms. Kelly

Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.

Yeah, okay, thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks for that information. I'd mentioned the last couple of days one of the big areas of concern for myself and I'm hearing from others is this proposed tailings, oil sands or tar sands tailings discharge regulations development, and I understand that we've wanted to try to get some better engagement and involvement with oil sands monitoring. There's a body called the oil sands monitoring program oversight committee, and then there's some technical advisory committees that I guess work with that committee as well. And as I understand it, we had -- GNWT wanted to get some involvement in that committee so that we could perhaps even get better prepared for potential discharges. So I'd like to ask the Minister whether he has indeed written to the Government of Alberta requesting membership on these committees and what the response has been from the provincial government. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Member for this question. Yeah, we did write a letter to Minister Nickerson, I believe is correct. And then just recently I received a response from Minister Nickerson that Alberta is not supportive of providing a seat to the GNWT on the oil sands monitoring program oversight committee and the technical advisory committee. We are very disappointed that Alberta is not supporting our request as this committee has made decisions about monitoring at sites identified in Alberta-NWT bilateral water management agreement. Minister Nickerson has made commitments in his response to our request to increase senior level communications, scheduled more frequent meetings, and updates between the Government of Alberta and the NWT. He also advised Alberta's commitment to share information to address the GNWT concerns and interests related to the oil sands development in their proposal to develop regulations that allow for release of that treated tailing water to the Athabasca River. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. Let's just say I'm a little bit more than surprised that the provincial government would deny a request to sit on this committee. This is, I guess, one of the committees too that had some oversight on the monitoring upstream that Alberta unilaterally decided to stop as part of its industry relief around COVID. So what reasons were provided by the provincial government to deny membership or not support GNWT's membership on this committee? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister.

Thanks. For that detail, I'll ask the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy minister.

Yeah, thanks, Mr. Chair, and I thank the deputy minister for that. Well, with all due respect, how can you part of a transboundary agreement when the provincial government upstream won't even share information; won't even allow you to be at the table when monitoring is being discussed? This is totally unacceptable. I would like to know from the Minister what the position of the federal government is on our request to sit on this committee?

Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.

Thank you. So we have written a letter to the federal minister but we haven't received a formal response from Canada on our request and we continue to engage with the Minister of Environment and Climate Change Canada on our request as both the Government of Canada and Alberta co-chair the oil sands monitoring program oversight committee. So we have been reaching out to Minister Gibeault on this very topic. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I guess I'd like to seek a commitment from the Minister that he's going to provide an update in this House before the end of this sitting as to what's going on with this matter. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. What I will do is I'll make a commitment to have a confidential update to committee and then we, as collectively [Audio Unavailable] a conversation moving forward what we will be doing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. While I appreciate the opportunity to get a technical update but I'm going to be asking the Minister questions before the end of this sitting on this matter because the public deserves to know whether the provincial government is going to allow us to sit on this committee or not. So that's a heads up to the Minister that I'm going to be asking for answers in public about this.

I want to move on, though, to a couple of other areas here if I can, Mr. Chair.

I believe this is the part of the ENR budget where inspections for water licenses are conducted, and if I've got that wrong maybe the Minister can let me know. But how have we done with frequency of inspections, particularly of the diamond mines for the water licenses, during the COVID pandemic? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.

Thank you. My understanding is we're still doing our inspections but for further detail and making sure I understand it correctly, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.

[Audio Unavailable]

Minister.

Yeah, so as the Minister for Lands, I can verify that we do have our lands officers going in doing the inspections presently. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I'll probably have some more questions when we get to the Department of Lands on this on the exact frequency so that's more of a heads up, but that's all I got on water today. And I want to thank the Minister and his staff and yourself.

Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's my understanding that EIA is currently leading some work to lobby the feds to amend the MVRMA or possibly devolve the MVRMA and pending the outcome of those negotiations, that would then allow ENR to resume work on the Waters Act and Environmental Protection Act. Can I just clarify if that is the case, that we have to wait for that MVRMA work to be done before any further work on waters or environmental protection? Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Johnson. Minister.

I really hate giving these -- this answer to the Member but, yes, you are correct.

Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I recognize that MVRMA is both federal legislation and led by EIA but I'm just -- I think we are long overdue for a regulatory system overhaul and a big part of that is waters and EPA and obviously MVRMA. But does the Minister have any update on when the MVRMA work will be complete so we could then continue to finish the EPA and waters work? Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Johnson. Minister.

Thanks. I can't speak for another department but I can tell you from our side of things -- well, I can't tell you. I'll ask the deputy minister to update you on where we are. I don't think the Member wants me to say "soon". So I will turn to the deputy minister with your permission. Thank you.

Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I'm happy to hear that, and I'm sure I'll have questions for EIA when the time comes.

I guess my other question is there's been some rumors or possibly talk of some sort of corporate restructuring involving some possibly ENR, MACA or Lands. One of the things that I don't quite understand is that lands officers and water resource officers are two different positions. I think they are very ripe to become one position - environmental officers. I'll note that lands officers already do water inspections at the diamond mines. So can I just get the Minister to speak to whether that merging of those positions is something that's being considered? Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Johnson. Minister.

Yeah, so I just want to clarify that, you know, we're talking amalgamation -- or the Member is talking about it. We're not talking about that right now. We're not talking about positions. We're not having that conversation. But my understanding is that there's two distinct positions and you need those two distinct positions. But for further detail and clarity on this, I would like you to turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Are there any other questions from committee on this section? Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I'd just like to talk about the release of treated oil sand tailings in Alberta. And I guess it's difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that we don't hear much from the government's side on this. We hear Indigenous organizations, you know, opposing it. You know, we're downstream from it. We have claims out there that have, you know, sections about water rights and management. They have sections in there about the right to fish and wildlife.

And so I would ask the Minister if his department is collaborating or working with the Indigenous governments to deal with this issue because it sounds like we don't have a lot of clout when it comes to what's happening in Alberta and, you know, I just want to make sure we're using every avenue we can and, you know, we've got settled claims that are in, you know, entrenched in the constitution, you know, and they've got sections in there that we could use. So I just want to make sure, you know, that we are doing everything we can to protect the water and wildlife in the Northwest Territories. And, you know -- so I guess the question is, what are we doing? Are we working with Indigenous groups? Are we using the claims, the sections in the claims? So a couple questions there. Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Simpson. Minister.

Okay, thank you. I want to be very clear to the House, and to the people that are listening here, no release of oil sand process water is currently allowed under the Alberta Environmental Protection and Enhancement Act or the federal Fisheries Act, so it's not allowed. It's not allowed.

When you talk about what we're doing, I'm not in -- as I said previously, I'm not in there to make it public out there, slamming. We're trying to work behind the scenes, do the work we need to do, and we do have a relationship with our Indigenous governments. But for that detail of exactly, we've already had one meeting on water. We were planning on another one. Again, COVID hit. But for further detail on exactly what we're doing in moving forward thing, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, we have these -- I understand we have these agreements. And you know, we have the claims agreements as well. Yet, you know, I look at, you know, case law, you know throughout Canada and throughout the US and, you know, there's been issues that have arisen. So I just want to make sure, you know, your department and this government is prepared, you know, to ensure that water flowing into the Northwest Territories is protected and do everything we can, whether it's through agreements, through the claims, it's through the courts, whatever we have to do, and we have to be prepared, you know, at some point to, you know, possibly, you know, go that route. Because, you know, water's going to be a -- you know, it's a commodity that everybody needs and it wouldn't take much to, you know, to destroy the habitat here in the Northwest Territories if we get contaminants coming down. You know, we talk about fish and other wildlife as well. So I just want to make sure that, you know, it's front and center and we're using everything we can. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Mr. Simpson. Minister.

Front, centre, back, side, overtop, underneath - it is very much a priority of this department, this government. I can guarantee you there's been lots of conversations and the department is working very diligently with our Indigenous governments and with the Alberta government and the federal government to make sure that these transboundary water agreements are enforced and work properly. There is mechanisms in there on how we -- where we go. And at some point in time, if we have to go there then we go there. But right now we are doing everything that we can and I have to say the department, starting from the deputy minister all the way down to our water inspectors out there, they're doing their job. They are doing good work in making sure that everything's being addressed. But I couldn't agree with you more and I couldn't agree with Mr. O'Reilly any more. These things need to be addressed. Sometimes in government we're a little bit -- not at the speed that people want but we're trying to do it appropriately and respectfully but also for the residents of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a word of caution I guess, is that when you use the word such as "guarantee" unless you've got 100 percent control over what's happening, don't use it. Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Simpson. Any comments, Minister.

I guarantee that I'll listen to him on that one. Thank you.

Mahsi. Mr. Simpson? I don't see any further questions from committee. Mr. Edjericon.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yeah, I think this is a -- be a discussion on this one here. I just wanted to let you know that I was also involved at the Mackenzie Valley Impact Review Board as a chairman for six years and we also were really concerned about the water and transboundary. So we also made arrangements to work with the Alberta government on the transboundary agreement to share information. And that information, to me, was really important because we kind of -- the mandate, the review board at the time was making sure that we protect the wildlife, the air, and the fish.

And I guess the other thing I was going to say is that you look at Giant Mine. You know, there's a huge cleanup that happened there. And that was probably one of the toughest EAs I've ever been through. And at the end, we made a decision that's based on the evidence and the people that was all involved. The GNWT was there. Also proponents with the federal Government of Canada etcetera. So, and I'm glad the Minister talked about the agreements they have with Alberta government now and sharing information and so on.

And it's still -- you know, when I go back to my constituency and I listen to the elders and I listen to Chief Gerry Cheezie from Alberta, they still have issues and concerns about water and downstream users etcetera. And I'm not really sure how far your agreement goes in terms of the water license for the proponents in Alberta. And, like here in the North, we have a process that deals with those water license, you know, Ekati and Diavik etcetera, and we could make sure that, you know, the environment's going to continue to be protected etcetera.

Also up here with the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, the way we do business now is they start put security in so that mining companies don't end up like Giant Mine. So I guess the question for me is that in Alberta, I'm not sure how far your water license or your agreement goes but how do we get involved if projects continues to happen. I know the oil prices are down. There's -- in places in Alberta where, you know, the refinery, you know, I heard a bunch of stories about not very good oil, they call it dirty oil and that kind of thing. But what I'm thinking, Mr. Chairman, is that how do we get involved to make sure that we don't have another Giant Mine and making sure the water's protected?

Mahsi, Mr. Edjericon. Minister.

I'll start and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. We don't want another Giant Mine. However, we can't tell other jurisdictions how they monitor or how they allow development. It would not be good if we are -- if you look at it, if we have Nunavut telling us what we can and can't do. We need to work with our organizations and we do address issues that way, but as for the how our water management is done and if I misspoke I will turn to the deputy minister to clear up everything and answer the other part of the question on how this transboundary agreement works. Thank you.

Mahsi. Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Mr. Edjericon.

Just one more I think. I'm just thinking about the -- on the Giant Mine public hearing, we had many intervenors or proponents etcetera, like DFO, department of the environment, and all the aboriginal groups, etcetera. So if you were to find in your reports and fish studies etcetera, or water quality, you have an opportunity to probably work with the Alberta government and try to I guess address those issues. But also my question would be is that during the water licence process, are we involved in that process too as well through your department and Alberta? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Edjericon. Minister.

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

Deputy minister.

Mahsi. And I don't think there's any further questions? Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I apologize ahead of time if this was already asked because I was off doing a meeting, so.

I'm just curious, I notice that the department has in the last while, or in 2020, released sort of a template now for reporting water quality sampling results etcetera in the Northwest Territories. And I'm just wondering where the department is at for -- for groundwater guidelines or for our own water and soil guidelines in the North versus using, say, federal guidelines. Are we continuing to develop, or are we still just using interim guidelines in the meantime? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks.

Mahsi, Ms. Nokleby. Minister.

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I guess -- sorry, just one sec here. So under the -- in the grants contributions transfer, the water regulatory line there, is that just sort of a status quo amount, so that's not that they're -- like, you're not developing new ones, that money's not going to new development; it's more just for the application of the regulatory guidelines? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Ms. Nokleby. Minister.

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And is that a number that's generally, like, a static throughout the time, or do we expect fluctuations based on additional projects coming online? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Ms. Nokleby. Minister.

For that detail, deputy minister, please. Thank you.

Deputy minister.

Mahsi. Ms. Nokleby.

[Audio Unavailable]

Excuse me. Ms. Martselos.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to -- not very often I go on defence of a Minister in a department but I want to ensure that the -- when I was Chief at Salt River First Nation, we always had a dialogue with ENR and with the water quality regulations and the monitoring that was done within the department. And I know for a fact that even during the pandemic that water quality was happening and monitoring, and the First Nations were always involved, especially Salt River and the Metis because they're from Fort Smith. And I know for a fact that the water quality in the Fort Smith area is top notch. So I just want to make sure that we don't get wrong information from anyone that this is not okay, okay? Because I think that they also have workings with the municipality, and I remember when my husband was mayor that there was a letter written about the water quality in Fort Smith and how great it was. Okay, so it's just a comment. I'm not going to ask any questions but I just want to know one thing, and I'm sure you're still working with those First Nations when they go out to do monitoring; am I correct? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Ms. Martselos. Minister.

Yes, we're -- and I thank the Member for that. Yeah, we are working with them. We are -- we have constant communication, whether it's our regional office or out of headquarters, and we have an open line. So if the community had -- or Indigenous governments or the communities have concerns, they can reach out to us and we're able to get that information to them as quickly as we can. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Ms. Martselos.

I want to make one last comment. When I was the Chief of Salt River First Nation, I just want to reiterate the working relationship we had with the deputy minister. It was an incredible, valuable relationship, and we had a lot of dialogue with the aboriginal people. And I'm not asking any more questions, but I just want to make sure that people understand that the water is fine in Fort Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Ms. Martselos. I didn't hear any questions there. Any further questions from committee? No further questions. Please turn to page 88. Environment and Natural Resources, water management and monitoring operations expenditure summary, 2022 to 2023 Main Estimates, $9,893,000. Does the committee agree?

Agree, thank you.

We'll turn to wildlife and fish beginning on page 91, with information item on page 94. Questions? Wildlife and fish. Okay, not seeing any questions. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. So in the Minister's opening remarks, he said that there's an extra $1.03 million for work on the Bathurst and Bluenose East caribou herds. I don't want the Minister to tell me right now, but I want an itemized list of what this money's actually for. So can the Minister commit to provide that and actually make it public? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister.

We have it with us if the Member wants it right now. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Or did you say you just wanted to be -- give it to him because of his time? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi. Mr. O'Reilly.