Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. First I just want to establish can the Minister confirm that the Northwest Territories Power Corporation is expected to have a balanced budget each year, or can they run operating deficits? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to send that to the deputy minister who will be able to speak to that.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the deputy minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. So the general approach is that the NTPC will run based on its -- run its operations based on its revenues that it gets from ratepayers but they do have the ability to take on debt, so in a sense, they do spend more than they take in, but that debt is supposed to be allocated towards capital acquisitions only so that's generally how it works. So for their operations, they have to be fully funded by ratepayers.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, now I'm curious given the wording of the deputy minister. He said it's generally operating expenses are not covered by short-term borrowing. But have there been occasions where short-term borrowing is or has been used in the recent past for operating expenditures at the power corporation? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, that would only be in a short-term sense. Again, I expect this is going to come up here today. So not as a way of running their operations. I think perhaps the original question was whether they're expected to have a balanced operating budget. And, yes, they're expected to have a balanced operating budget, but they can use debt to take on infrastructure costs. Again, Mr. Chair, I don't necessarily have all this in front of me, and I'm more than happy to follow up with Members if I -- if -- with NTPC, they may well be quite happy to come and speak to Members about this in more detail. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The problem that we're facing here is we have an arm's length, you know, corporation that is supposed to be sort of balancing its own budget, but then we're asked to essentially subsidize operations to avoid ratepayers having to pay too much. But there are not many levers we have to, for example, ask them to prove that they can't do things differently or find savings in different ways as opposed to charging ratepayers. And I understand that that's the role that the public utilities board is supposed to serve.

I'm just thinking of a parallel here. You know, we have the health authority with costs that are sort of spiralled out of control and it's, you know, again, an arm's length authority, and so we've established a public administrator to look more deeply into how that budget can be balanced and where cost savings can be found, but we don't have a parallel process happening in this case where, you know, we have someone looking more deeply into, you know, do they really need this money to avoid charging ratepayers more or are there other ways that cost savings can be made where the government doesn't have to keep issuing massive subsidies to diesel in order to spare ratepayers.

So I guess my question to the Minister in this case is, is she satisfied that the public utilities board processes are sufficient to reassure the Assembly that there are no other possible internal cost savings that can be found within the power corporation to help us avoid having to, you know, give them these subsidies? And, really, it's been pretty regular of late. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, it really is quite literally the role of the public utilities board to conduct the general application, and it is a fairly extensive and detailed process that is undertaken when they have to put in literally every single cost that is incurred, and it is analyzed, and there is a determination as to whether those costs are reasonable or not, and then the PUB sets, again, a reasonable -- a range of reasonableness of what the utility's permitted to make back in terms of their rate of return. That rate of return from the GNWT's side, Mr. Chair, we haven't taken a dividend in the time that I've been in this chair so, you know, again, that's one of the levers we have, is to not take anything in terms of a rate of return.

Yes, I -- I'm not really sure what else to say. It's literally the job of the PUB, and it's happening imminently here to do a very detailed analysis of every single cost that is involved in setting the rates. So, again, I'm happy to review that process at further length with all Members. It's certainly a complex one. Because the things that go into generating power are complex, so I'd be happy to do that at a later time and run through that and see what they're examining and what they're analyzing. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do think that this is a very conversation to have in more detail with committees. I know that we're not going to sort it all out here on the floor. But I personally am not satisfied that the processes surrounding the public utilities board examination would really have the kind of analysis of the system and the way costs are incurred and that would be able to provide us with some insights or recommendations on, you know, how to run the power corporation more efficiently with better cost savings. I mean, I -- I don't think that can come through those kind of hearings, and so I would love to have further conversations about what might be possible in terms of bringing more insights and analysis to the table as to how we can avoid being put in this position year after year where, you know, it's either these subsidies or ratepayers pay, but I feel like we can do more to try to prevent this need in the first place. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Okay, I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, fundamentally, the costs that go into generating power, whether it's the fuel or whether it's the upkeep, continue to grow, and the sales of power in the Northwest Territories remain flat, and that has been the case for a very long time, long before any -- before this Assembly was composed. So, you know, we can certainly try to increase those to whom we are selling, and in particular, it's, you know, not a handful of residential customers and probably not even converting a handful to electric heating, but to look for industrial customers. So the power corporation is right now -- has for the last two years and for the first time ever but in the last two years attended Roundup to try to speak to the different projects that are coming online hopefully in the Northwest Territories. That would have a significant impact increasing our transmission system so that we can distribute power to more communities so that more communities are using hydro power. That will start to make a difference, not necessarily a huge one, probably it's more in the form of resiliency, but. So these are -- there are things that can impact the energy system in the Northwest Territories, but it's probably not the -- you know, tinkering on the sides of costs, it's going to be fairly significant changes.

So -- and, again, I -- there's a lot in this space. I certainly will ask my -- ask that we set up a time for MLAs to look at this and to look at what we're doing. There is also the change coming to the board that has been asked, and I'd like to get to speak to about -- to that. I don't know that that changes these fundamentals that sales are flat and costs are high, but there's work underway to try to make that -- to shift that balance a little bit. Thank you.

Thank you. Is there any further questions from -- okay, nothing from YK North. Any general comments? I'm going to go to the Member from YK Centre.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly a pleasure to get an opportunity to comment on page 7 under the directorate here, assuming we're still on the $12 million being proposed here.

I'm wondering if the Minister can provide a breakdown as to how that $12 million came to be as the number. Can they be specific as to where that subsidy will be applied? Thank you.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I don't know if I have that level of detail. Let me see if the deputy minister maybe can, and if not, we will look to pull up -- sorry, it's where the $12 million came from or where it's being applied? It's going to be applied on to -- to the costs -- the ratepayers' costs but it's where it's coming from, I'll see if the deputy minister may have that handy.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife Centre.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought she was referring to the deputy minister would comment before coming back. If I'm incorrect.