Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Ng and then Mr. Morin.
Territorial Leadership Committee on Nov. 20th, 1995
Transcript of meeting #1 for Territorial Leadership Committee in the 13th Assembly.
The winning word was chairman.
On the agenda
MLAs speaking
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to congratulate you on your election as Speaker. I don't want to be too long because I know a lot of Members have spoken and have articulated their positions already.
I would like to say that I am not in support of establishing a ninth position for primarily two main reasons. At this stage of our Assembly, as we lead towards division and in our consensus style of government, we have always tried to balance the East/West interest, whether it is on Cabinet, committees, in Caucus or in any position that is affiliated with the Assembly. The status quo should remain in place.
Secondly, there have been suggestions made that we could possibly finance this new Cabinet position internally. Regardless of that fact, even if we were able to do that, if we could that easily fund a Cabinet position, we should that easily be able to address our needs for job creation, housing, social programs and the other things that most of our constituents want us to address. It has been said that we expect there will be a major downsizing of government in the years to come. As my colleague, Mr. Floyd Roland, has said, we have to lead by example in this initiative.
Having said that, I know that Members have agreed that there may be a need to review this at a later date. I think that is very appropriate because we don't know what the new Premier and the new Cabinet composition is going to be at this time. We don't know what the distribution of the workload is going to be amongst the Cabinet by the new Premier and we don't know the capabilities of those Cabinet and Premier positions and how they are going to be able to handle it until we get them elected and on stream.
Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I know that the majority of Members have spoken already. I would like to propose...Sorry, that is it, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Ng. Mr. Don Morin and then Mr. James Rabesca.
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November 19th, 1995
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to congratulate you on your acclamation as Speaker. Congratulations.
Four years ago, I supported a ninth Cabinet seat. Since that time, times have changed. I have learned a bit. We can't afford that ninth seat. It is as simple as that. If the price is $500,000, I think we can use that money better in the communities such as Lutsel K'e, Gjoa Haven, et cetera. We need the money to better fund our programs at the community levels. We are talking about cuts. If you want to talk about stress, it is at the community level as well. Look at our teachers. We have overcrowded classrooms. They work 12 hours a day. Some of them are very committed to their jobs. They have to work with handicapped children. They have to work with children who have behavioural problems. They are under a lot of stress. Some of them even put up with having rocks thrown at their house at night. That is stress.
Look at our social workers. They are overwhelmed with the social problems we have today. They are constantly being requested to offer their assistance to our constituents. They work many hours a day.
Also the small business person out there pulling their hair out at night because they can't make ends meet, wondering how they are going to make their bank payment the next day. That is stress.
Everyone knows what you are getting into when you put your name forward for a Cabinet position. Everyone knows you are going to be expected to work 10 or 12 hours a day. I remember when I first was elected to Cabinet four years ago,
I told my wife I will work one weekend. The next month I said, I am only going to work two weekends. I will spend the other two weekends at home. About a month later, I have no choice I have to work three weekends of the month. No problem. That is what you have to do to get the job done. That is what you are paid to do. You are paid a good wage as Minister. You are going to work and earn it. That is what you have to do.
So this time around, I am not supporting a ninth seat. We have competent people here. They are capable and willing to work. The biggest problem we had in the last Assembly was a lot of our time was spent in fighting on the floor of this House. That is where a lot of our energy went. If we use that energy positively, then the workload shouldn't be too bad and the stress shouldn't be too bad. So I am not going to support the ninth seat. Thank you.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. James Rabesca and then Mr. Seamus Henry.
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James Rabesca North Slave
Mr. Chairman, would also like to congratulate you on your new position as Speaker. When I say "new position," I am thinking that it has been a long time since I was an MLA back in 1970. It is kind of new being here again. I would like to congratulate you again for being acclaimed to your old post as Speaker.
For awhile, I was convinced to go for the ninth position. But, after listening to all of you, I think the money that is to be paid to the Minister's new position should be looked at to see if it could be better used on programs in communities rather than creating new posts.
This ninth position doesn't sound like a new item. There is talk about the probability of getting a Deputy Premier on-line. It seems to me that we are creating more positions again. I thought maybe we should consider it during the mid-term review. Maybe we should put this item back on the agenda. I don't feel that it is the proper time to support it. I feel that most Members feel the same way. Where I come from, people have thought that programs should be put in place and supported. Apparently, there will be a lot of cutbacks in the future. I don't think there is any room for new positions to be created. At this time, I don't think I will support it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Rabesca. Mr. Henry and then Mr. Ootes.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to congratulate you on your acclamation to position of Speaker for this next Assembly. I, initially, had some support for the addition of a ninth seat for the next Assembly. I have had the opportunity to do some research on the topic over this past weekend, and I found out that this item has come up for discussion at least a couple of times in the previous assemblies.
I believe that previous governments have had more resources to contribute than the government we have presently. I believe that it's fair to say that this government will not have the same financial resources to commit to government and providing services as we've had in the past we will have to be a lot more creative.
I've listened to previous Ministers, with experience, talk about the responsibilities and the workload of a position on Cabinet. I'm impressed by their comments that it is a doable task when you take on that position. I believe that this House will have to lead by example and demonstrate a willingness to even cut the resources we have in this House to operate in a fiscally responsible manner. We will just have to do more with less. I would, at this time, not support any motion that may be put before this group to increase the number of Cabinet positions. Thank you.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Henry. For the Members who haven't spoken, do you wish to say anything? There are only two Members: Levi Barnabas and Mr. Michael Miltenberger. Mr. Jake Ootes.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion and I would like to speak to that motion after I make it if Imay.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
I move that the Territorial Leadership Committee agrees that the Cabinet be composed of the Premier and Seven Members;
And further, that this issue be reviewed again in six months' time to see if a ninth Member of Cabinet is warranted.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Ootes. They're just circulating the motion and the translated version.
The motion is in order. To the motion.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
I've heard that Members are very concerned about the cost and are not at this particular time, interested in adding a ninth Member. I feel that it's good to keep the option open. I, too, am concerned about the cost. The likelihood is that when we readdress this issue, my major concern will be that of cost. I feel that we should attempt over the next six months to involve the ordinary Members in the decision-making process as much as possible, thereby, perhaps, relieving some of the time pressures on the Ministers. For example, if a Minister is required to be in a part of the Territories that perhaps an ordinary Member can assist on that, where the Minister may have to be at another location. I heard from other
Members that from time to time it is difficult for the Ministers to get around the Territories, that it takes an average of three years to visit each of the communities. I believe that the ordinary Members can perhaps play a role in that. Additionally, in the decision-making process when it comes to the workload. There are a lot of capable people sitting around this Chamber and I think that it would be advisable to call on our help.
I note that the incremental cost of adding a Minister is $284,000 and that is a substantial amount of money. Over a four-year period, we're talking in excess of $1 million. I do also note that the incremental cost is based on extra staff members, an EA, secretary and travel costs. The other costs remain the same. Then I note an item of renovations necessary to provide a ninth Cabinet office. I think if we do add a ninth Member, we should be extremely careful about adding any kind of construction costs, et cetera.
Perhaps what we have to look at, as the honourable Member for Iqaluit mentioned, is a Minister responsible for division. I don't know whether that's an advisable thing; it may be and it may not be. If that should happen then I believe it should have a sunset clause on the life of the ministry. Thank you.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Kakfwi.
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Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion is a good motion. Members and the public and my constituents should know that I also have advocated that it should be done within existing resources, even in the face of the kinds of cuts that we will be asked to make. So that should be made clear.
During the campaign, my constituents asked me about my salary as a Minister and as an MLA and about the benefits that come with those. I made a commitment, as I did in 1987, that I would support substantial reductions in the salaries of Ministers and MLAs. I've indicated that to the Caucus last week. I'm in favour of substantial reductions to the benefits that come to us as Members of this Legislature and to Ministers as well. I've advocated that there should be a substantial reduction, as well, to the office of Speaker and to the salary and the benefits that flow to that office. I want to make that as a matter of record because I don't want the media, which sometimes doesn't do its homework, to suggest that I want to spend money lavishly on the creation of yet another position because that is not the case at all. I've advocated, as well, that there should be substantial cuts to the budget of the Legislative Assembly. Every Member of this Legislature will be asked and should be asked what their position is with regard to those points that I've just raised.
Personally, I know what it is to try to cut the budget of the Legislature and the Government of the Northwest Territories by $5 million, by $10 million. I know what it's like when you try to recover from a reduction in your budget of $17 million. I know what it's like to try to make very difficult changes such as the strategy that we developed a few years ago to get out of staff housing. I was the Minister responsible for that and I know how difficult it was, not only to keep the Legislature onside but individual Members of Cabinet onside because it was seen as politically very difficult to implement. But we've done that. When I suggest that I see merits in a ninth seat, I don't want to suggest it either that I'm not willing to work. I know what the job of the Premier entails. I know what the job of a Minister entails, I've been at it for eight years. Every job that I've been assigned as a Minister I've not only started it, I've finished it. I think it's important to point it out that I spent eight months of my life travelling across Canada on the constitutional process, eight months of it. On the average, two weeks each month for eight months I spent at it. I not only finished the job, I had also delivered the vote in the Northwest Territories.
So there are challenges and there are demands made on us as Ministers. I know sometimes I have a question. I know we spent close to $1 million pursuing the issue of the northern accord, and it's substantially more than that if you look at all the other times we tried to make a deal on this. You factor in the timing of the negotiations, you factor in the amount of time we spent strategizing and spending daily time focusing on this issue, and you wonder why we still haven't got the job done.
So sometimes things are not as straightforward as they seem; while you think you're saving salary money, for me there is the very real potential that sometimes we don't spend enough time on the issues that we are assigned to take care of.
I know every one of us who have been Ministers, we have meetings in the evenings, we have meetings at 7:00 in the morning, we have meetings on weekends just to finish up the work we have and sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes you'll find that letters are not responded to very quickly, there are issues that need to be pondered week in and week out before there is a resolution to it. So there are the hidden costs. How much does it cost every time a Minister needs another week to make a decision because they have two or three other portfolios and 50 other issues to deal with that are more pressing at the time?
I offer these comments because, as I say, I've been a Minister for eight years and I thought it was important to take a position on this issue. But I don't want to close the debate without making some points in defence of myself because I know one MLA about three weeks ago said they heard I was lazy, that I didn't work very hard as a Minister. I don't know ii Ronna Bremer and Marina Devine have gotten a hold of that one yet, but these things tend to take a life of their own so it was important for me to make these points before the points are concluded because surely there has to be some substance to the impressions we create of one another. I don't want it to be seen that I'm not willing to do the work, because I have. I've gotten good report cards, for what they were worth, in the last two terms as a Minister. I have gotten a lot of the work that I've been assigned done, a substantial amount of work. I was very willing to share the work and give people the opportunity to share the experience. As I said, I am on record as being in favour of very substantial cuts to my salary and my benefits as an MLA and as a Minister and to those of the Legislature as well. Thank you.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. To the motion . Mr. Ningark.
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John Ningark Natilikmiot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The extra position on Cabinet that we're talking about, I've heard my colleagues from my part of the region talk about whether or not an extra Minister's position should be for Nunavut.
Mr. Chairman, if there was an extra position on Cabinet, the ninth position that we've talked about, to help the people who that we label as living in the streets; if the position was to help the people, the mothers who are in need of help, when a member of the household is abusing the children and the mother; if the extra position was to help the student who at times goes to school without having breakfast; if the position was to help the elders who are being abused in their own when their cheque is cashed at a local outlet and subsequently the elders receive only part of their cheque, then I would be in a position to support this move, Mr. Chairman. I would, in fact, support it even with the limited dollars that we have in the system, but I know this is not going to be the case. We talked about zero tolerance during the last term. Some people indicated it doesn't have any teeth. If the position was going to help to make sure that zero tolerance now has real teeth, then I would be in a position to support that at this point in time. But we know that this is not going to be the case.
The motion indicated that this issue that we talked about will be looked at in six months' time. I think it is a good motion. When you're in a public arena such as we're sitting in today, that we do not kill the motion especially if it has merit in the system to make life easier for the people within the jurisdiction.
I think the motion has merit. If this were an idealistic world, I would be supporting it. Perhaps in six months' time, we will find out that, in fact, there is a need to have an extra position in the Cabinet.
Mr. Chairman, I will support the motion. I think it is a good motion. There will be time to talk about it within six months. Thank you.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
Thank you, Mr. Ningark. To the motion. Mr. Antoine.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be supporting this motion. It's a good motion. It says that we will not be adding another Member to the Cabinet; however, we will be reviewing the possibility of a ninth Member to the Cabinet after six months. In my comments to the discussion earlier I indicated that I would like to see the numbers, and we've received some preliminary numbers that state that the total estimated cost per Minister is $539,000 and the estimated incremental costs of an additional Minister is $284,000, so this figure is quite substantial. Based on that, this motion is saying we will not be adding another Member to the Cabinet but we will be looking at it after six months, therefore I will be supporting this motion. Mahsi.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
To the motion. Mr. Steen.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
To the motion. Mr. Arlooktoo.
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Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I first spoke, I had meant to congratulate you on your position but I didn't since it was the very first time I had spoken, but congratulations to you.
As I understand this motion, it basically says we'll keep the status quo and look at the issue six months down the road. I will be supporting this motion from the view of what the Member for Iqaluit had said that there are a lot of unknowns right now, partly with the budget and partly with division. If the Nunavut MLA's especially do not see satisfactory movement towards division and we have to be moving very quickly and very soon if we are to meet the deadline of April 1999, then perhaps it may be helpful to look at this issue again and to see if we can put in a Minister to deal with division issues. From that viewpoint -- and I've already spoken about my concern with the cost -- I will be supporting the motion.
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The Chair Samuel Gargan
To the motion.
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Some Hon. Members
Question.