This is page numbers 24 - 48 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 1st Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was report.

Topics

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 39

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Madam Government Leader.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 39

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

What we are doing now is setting up a process so that people know how they can work toward more control and take over more of the programs and responsibility. It is a process that is going to be set up. Whether people take advantage of that process can take as long as they want. So if a community is not ready or feels that they are not ready, it may be that some communities will want to take over, for example, the drug and alcohol program or some programs that are more relevant. Every community will be different.

Right now, there are many communities asking for more involvement, for example, in the correction of juveniles. These things are very important to people. We are just setting up a mechanism so that when a community comes forward and says they wish to take over these programs, then we know and are able to accommodate the negotiations for the takeover.

Again, I want to say we are not suggesting to move any quicker than the communities are willing to move.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 39

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Keewatin.

Involvement Of MLAs

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 39

John Todd Keewatin Central

While I acknowledge the concerns expressed by my colleague, Mr. Bernhardt, and I am sympathetic about it, I am not as much of a philosopher. I am more of a practitioner. My concern is regarding the process of who makes the decision regarding the phasing in of these responsibilities. To me, there is a contradiction going on in the sense of this report at the regional level. On the one hand, we are saying we need more involvement by MLAs. It says so right here in the report. On the other hand, this report clearly says we need to change the role of regional directors. God help us. They want to give the regional directors more responsibility and, believe it or not, have them report to cabinet.

That reinforces with me that too many decisions are going to be made at the centre, and not enough are going to be made where the problems occur. Surely, on the one hand we want MLAs to be more involved in the decision-making -- and it has been said on a number of occasions by the people in this House -- but on the other hand they say this option is strongly recommended. Are we not, in fact, going back to the way it was 20 years ago by saying the regional directors are going to be the instrument in the region and are going to report directly to cabinet? Where do we fit in?

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Government Leader.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Presently, the regional directors report to cabinet. I do not know that every little item in this report has to be taken as the word of the Bible. As we move along, there are items in there that may not be applicable because, at the time, we did not design or tell the study group to deal with all of the departmental responsibilities under this government. There are things that we may flesh out. Some things may not be appropriate. We are not saying at this time that 100 per cent of this report is going to be acceptable or workable. We are setting up the instruments to move toward making sure that the programs and responsibilities in the stages of turnover are met in a process. Thank you.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Further comments. Member for Keewatin.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

John Todd Keewatin Central

However, Mr. Chairman, it does say -- and I think this has a significant impact on the changes that come out of it -- that the regional directors should perform a strong role in relation to the new priorities attached to community transfers. It says they should be key members of the GNWT's implementation group for community transfers. We are not suggesting we approve it en masse, but this does have a significant impact in terms of the concerns that my friend here has, and the concerns that I have with respect to the phasing and priorities at the regional level. That is all I am trying to say. You know the old saying, "to be forewarned is to be forearmed." I am really saying that I do not see this as a small matter. I see this as a fundamental instrument of delivery of the recommendations and priorities that you as a cabinet are going to establish. Again, this particular individual reports directly to cabinet with no line responsibilities to the departments, as I understand it. You may want to change that. I do think it is important, and I will address the issue later on in the coming weeks. Thank you.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Government Leader.

Role Of Regional Director

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

In terms of the regional director, I would like to make one comment. I would expect that when we set the process in gear, and when the process is set up, the regional director will have to be on the team as well. Otherwise, if there are a number of community transfers in any given region, I would expect the regional director to be supportive of that because the communities are indicating that they want to move ahead with these community transfers. How this will work out, I do not know. In addition to that, if they are reporting through the structure of a committee to make sure the community transfers happen -- because this is what happened before. We did not have a process where you can accommodate the community transfers. As a result, there were many different directions, and the people who wanted to move for more takeover felt that what the region was saying was something different from the priorities set by this government.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Supplementary, Member for Keewatin.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

John Todd Keewatin Central

I do not wish to plug it to death today, but all I am asking is, where within the transfer process do the MLA and municipal leader fit in?

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Madam Government Leader.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

I have not sat down and looked at the total process and structure, but we know and recognize that MLAs and municipal leaders have to be involved, so we will come back as soon as we have completed the process structure and have it presented. If we are not in session, it will be sent out to all the Members as soon as it is completed.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Member for Deh Cho.

Report Does Not Address Communities' Aspirations

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I have not had an opportunity to read the report itself and I do not know whether this is the Beatty report, and I have not read that either. I have just been skimming through the document itself and Members here, as well as the Executive, have been responding basically, I would presume, to the report itself.

Again I am saying that the aspirations of the communities have not really been addressed. I see this report as another report generally geared toward the prime body concept, and we are still the administrative arms of this government.

I had an opportunity to listen to the Western Constitutional Commission in some of the communities and some of the presentations, and what I keep hearing is perhaps at odds with what this report is all about. I believe some of the communities are saying that if we have the creation of Nunavut and a new territory, then this is what the Western Arctic could be facing with regard to the delivery of government in the Western Arctic. Never mind the national agenda. I am afraid that if we only accept this as a document to offer to the communities, I would think that most of the communities will not consider it.

You might also have a different view from the communities where they have signed an agreement in principle for land claims. Those are the communities that do have a different agenda based on extinguishment of rights. So again we have a situation where perhaps this document would be acceptable to them. But if you look at the Deh Cho region, which I am not referring to with regard to the Deh Cho constituency -- the region itself is composed of 10 communities -- they have gone through a lot of pressures since this government came to be. They also had pressures before government started moving up here. In fact, 1992 would be 500 years since we have been exercising and responding to pressures that still exist. Another pressure is a whole new document, again to create an existing government, or perhaps just giving it the self-government definition. It certainly sounds good, but I do not think it reflects the aspirations of the communities.

In the communities now, I think what we are hearing is that communities are saying, "We do have an inherent right. We did have rights before, 500 years ago; and we have been taking care of ourselves, perhaps not in the ways that the western culture wants us to, but we survived for over 30,000 years. I think if you give us the opportunity, we could prove to you that we probably could survive for another 30,000 years without having that kind of an institution again being imposed on the communities."

I realize what Nellie is saying, that this is only an offer to the communities and the communities do not have to accept it, or they can accept it at the pace they want to; but Nellie has not said anything else other than that. This is the only offer that she is giving the communities, no other opportunities that may exist.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 40

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Member for Deh Cho, we would prefer if you would use the last name instead of the first name. Thank you. Proceed.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

My apologies to the Government Leader, Mr. Chairman, but my feeling is that we do have a document here that the communities will be responding to, and I would presume that the response would not be as good if these documents were the government's position on self-government, and we have two other documents here on the aboriginal definition of self-government. Perhaps then we might be able to put the two documents together to come up with one common goal, but I do not see it happening yet. I just wanted to mention that.

I recognize that there is an urgent need to start giving more responsibility to the communities, but also at the same time we should be able to suggest to the communities what they see as a more effective or efficient delivery of core programs to the communities.

Reducing Number Of Civil Servants

I also wanted to mention, and I do not know whether it is mentioned in the Government Leader's statement, but I have not seen too much mention about what happens to the people that are civil servants in the Northwest Territories right now, and whether or not there are any plans to reduce the civil service and divert more responsibilities through attrition where the positions are freed up and transferred to the regions or to the communities. I would say that even if, Mr. Chairman, we cut the civil servants today or tomorrow, life will still go on in the communities. The local education authorities will still operate under the existing moneys that they have, and social services will still operate. It is not as if because we cut the civil service the communities are going to be helpless. In fact, I think it would motivate the communities more to start taking on more responsibilities.

The point, Mr. Chairman, is that because we have a large civil service population -- I think it is 163 per thousand in the Northwest Territories -- and the Yukon is the second highest where I think it is 112 per thousand, but that is still high. I would think that if we were to seriously look at decentralizing to the communities or to the regions the sooner it has to be there in the reduction of the people that in the communities are called "caretakers" -- I guess in Yellowknife you call them civil servants. I think it is time that we look seriously at what we are trying to implement, not only developing positions on it but actually doing something to reduce the dependency on the institutions that have been thrived on by western culture for a very long time.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Excuse me, Member for Deh Cho, you have had your 10 minutes. Do Members agree to let him continue?

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Gargan

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know where my community is coming from, I know where the regions are coming from. I also recognize where the government is coming from too. I would hope that somewhere in the next four years we will be able to say that we must reduce the public service and give all the responsibilities to the communities. I believe that is the only way we could see more production on the way you spend your money, as opposed to the way it is now. We do have a lot of program moneys, a lot of capital moneys that go in supporting the public service. The more positions or money you free up, the more programs you will be able to offer the communities. I believe as it devolves you just have a more healthy environment.

The North is the only place in Canada that that opportunity exists. Most of the southern institutions do not have that opportunity. The aboriginal people still deal directly with Ottawa. Over here we do have a large native population that has to depend a lot on the public service for their programs. But that does not mean that if tomorrow the public service dissolved that the aboriginal people are going to be left out in the cold. The federal government is still there to take those responsibilities back if they need to be addressed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Madam Government Leader.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 41

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, it just appears that the honourable Member in his last part was really supporting the report on "Strength at Two Levels," and really that is what we are trying to address. Until such time as we start dealing with the community in a respectable format, where they are not going to get into a process and find out half way there that it falls apart -- now the area is defined to put a process where, when communities come forward as they negotiate the programs and responsibilities they want, they get the resources to deal with that. It could be put in a block form or it could be in a manner that allows them to set some of their priorities and change things around.

Federal Guidelines Must Be Observed

Certainly we cannot offer that in all things because we are somewhat tied with some other federal guidelines that we have to deal with. But when you are talking with the community, as you go along, all those things will be fleshed out. In the end they might say they want all these things, but there is a bigger question we want asked politically and constitutionally. But at least at that point in time they are able to address and look at the programs and services they feel they can deliver to their own people in that community.

I believe that if we do not start, we will never answer that question. We will never be in a position to do anything. It will all be just a discussion, and you will still have the communities complaining saying, "We do not want the regional level. What do you have there at a regional board? What are they doing? They go to a meeting and they come home and do not even tell us what is going on at the meetings."

If you want to build a strong Nunavut government, Denendeh government, you have to start dealing with people at the community level so they become familiar. They are going to make mistakes. We all know that. But the more familiar they are with dealing with their own affairs in a practical sense, not in a theoretical sense, in a practical day-to-day sense -- because in order to live for another 30,000 years, these programs will still be around and somebody is still going to have to work at them -- the more we put at the community level, the more people will have an opportunity to reflect themselves in how those programs are delivered.

That is the opportunity we are offering. If people want to wait until a more theoretical constitutional issue is settled, that is up to them. But in the meantime, these are just practical, everyday programs that people have right now, that are generally managed at a board level or at a central headquarters level. I believe as we go along, the resources that are needed and required at a community level have to be negotiated into their responsibility. We are not asking people to take over responsibilities without the resources to do the job. Yes, there is going to be an effect on the overall government delivery system. But at the same time, if you do not start building at the community level, you are going to still be sitting around here 10 years later trying to explain to our communities what these programs are all about that we are sitting around here talking about. So that is an invitation to take part at the community level and to build that strength at that community base.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 42

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Deh Cho.