Mr. Gargan, you motion is in order and it is being circulated now. Mr. Gargan's motion is in order. To your motion, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, this is money that in the year before, this money has been unspent on capital funding, so what the department is doing is using the $40,600 for the expansion of the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre project. I do not know whether or not a big building such as this would be able to use that $40,600 for renovations, at such a small cost. This is moneys that were lapsed from the expansion of the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre.

So what I am suggesting is that if you reduce it by $25,000, then you still have a balance of $15,600 that has not previously been authorized. My intention here, Mr. Chairman is that if the $40,600 was reduced by $25,000, then it still authorizes the department, I would think, to spend $15,600.

I have a second motion regarding the intent of the authorization for expenditure -- then to go to the church in Fort Providence; that is my intent of the motion. So I would like to ask the Members to support the reduction by $25,000 to $15,600. It is not moneys that are allocated anywhere other than to the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre. I would think by doing that it may well free up at least some moneys.

To the motion. Mr. Todd.

Well, it seems to me that the original request, not that I am going to stand up for the Minister of Finance, is valid in a sense that there has been an increase in the collections that have been transferred from the South to the North. Mr. Gargan's request to reassign this money, I think, at this particular juncture is inappropriate.

Mr. Minister.

Perhaps if I could just explain to the committee, Mr. Chairman, this was a carry over, unspent capital funds from 1990 and 1991, and it was to provide a needs analysis study for the Prince of Wales Heritage Museum, and when the Financial Management Board approved that transfer carry-forward, Mr. Chairman, it directed that no detailed design or construction is to be undertaken in the 1991-92 fiscal year due to the high 1992-93 funding requirement associated with this request. But at the same time, the Financial Management Board felt that a needs assessment of that particular institution was required and would be a good thing to have on hand, because as the chairman of the standing committee on finance has mentioned, there are more artifacts coming into its possession and we did feel we needed to know what the needs were.

To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance made a statement regarding where the expenditures are going to be taking place. If you read the document, that is not what it says. All it says is that there is going to be an expansion of the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage project. I am not on the finance committee, so I am not aware of the information provided to Members on the finance committee. For me it is appropriate. Perhaps Mr. Todd is aware, so it is inappropriate to him, but I do not know what happens in the finance committee. The only time I have is in this House. What I am doing here is -- moneys from last year have lapsed, money that has not been used up. For all intents and purposes, perhaps they wish to spend that money before the end of the year.

What I am suggesting is that I think we could better utilize the expansion of the Prince of Wales Heritage Centre. The building is excellent. It is not deteriorating. It is not going to fall apart if this $40,600 has not been spent. I am suggesting that I have a situation in which if I do not, on my own initiative, do something, then I could very well see a very historical building, which is part of my community's heritage, be deteriorated to a point of no return. So I think the Members might understand where I am coming from. On the other hand, this would free up some money. There is no other avenue left.

I am sure the Members did hear me talk time and time again about the church in Fort Providence and the bad situation it is in. The Members must also realize that the longer we wait for a decision to be made, the possibility of its ever being restored is getting dimmer and dimmer. So I would think that this is my last effort in order to get something done for the old church in Fort Providence. And basically I would ask that the Members look at supporting this motion. The Prince of Wales will still have $15,600 to play around with. So it is a reasonable motion. I think the Members realize the difficulty I am in. If the motion is defeated, I could live with that. But I am not going to go back to my community saying that I did not try. The whole purpose of being Members in this House is to represent your constituency. Never mind the government's agenda. If we keep rubber stamping....

Mr. Gargan, can you try to speak to the motion.

Mr. Chairman, I am just taking a position on what my right as a Member is with regard to introducing this motion. I would like to ask the Members and the Executive to support my motion.

Mr. Allooloo.

Rational Plan Needed For Expansion Of Prince OF Wales Northern Heritage Centre

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Gargan has done his bit to represent his constituency. I will try to represent my department and also to protect the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre.

What it is is that we need planning dollars. Up to this point we have been using ad hoc type of solutions to deal with space problems, to accommodate artifacts as well as the people. Since 1979 there have been increased personnel working in the Northern Heritage Centre -- from seven positions to 29 full-time and term positions. The number of individual program areas has grown from five to nine. Many of these program areas require specialized work; they need specialized spaces that a lot of times is not available. Over the years there has been a series of ad hoc conditions, as I stated earlier, and alterations to accommodate new programs and staff. But no rational plan for expansion has been undertaken. What we are trying to do is to utilize this money to come up with a rational plan to take into consideration the overcrowding that exists for artifacts and personnel.

This situation of overcrowding will be compounded in two years. Trailers which have been added onto the centre must be vacated by order of the fire marshal. We need the money at this time to plan, not only to meet the requirement of space, but also to meet the requirement of the fire marshal.

Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Gargan has a point in the wording on page 9 of the supp document. It would indicate that to me that the expansion of the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre -- as if we were looking for a physical expansion. I would concede that to the Member, and I apologize to the House for that misleading wording. I will try to ensure that those kinds of things do not happen again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Standing Committee On Finance Defended

To the motion. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What this motion does is to really destroy the capacity of this government to do things properly. I was very disappointed when I found that the museum had to get a bunch of trailers to protect a whole bunch of material they had no room for. I was particularly disappointed because I was on the original committee that was set up when the planning was being done for that museum. The feeling always was that if we do it, we are going to do it properly. We are going to do it right. So it is a disappointment to me to find out that we have Members that really want to continue with the use of trailers.

I had occasion today to support a motion to take kids out of a trailer in Kakisa because it was not right. It was not done properly. I would hate to think that we continue to do things which are ad hoc, messy and not really done according to the standards that we have established for our building program. I think this is the wrong way of going about solving a completely different problem, Mr. Chairman. I think we should take a different approach to it than simply cutting here and there.

To the motion. Mr. Zoe.

Mr. Zoe, I have to let you know that Mr. Gargan was talking about introducing another motion later in relation to that. I will ask you to speak about it at that time. To the motion.

To the motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There has been some concern from committee Members or different Members with respect to the Minister prioritizing and placing the Prince of Wales Museum over other community projects. I recognize that this motion is requesting the funding in the amount of $25,000 be deleted from this amount. My question to the Minister of Culture and Communications through the Minister of Finance, would be why the Minister prioritized and placed the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre project before considering other projects in other communities? Mr. Chairman, I would like that answered first, and then I can go on with my other comments.