Mr. Pollard.

We have obviously been lax in the white fox department, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the manager has been here on a number of occasions and I guess we are relying on her to get the message across to the staff that work there. We also require them to read publications from the Northwest Territories and our information from tourism, etc. It would appear though that we are not doing a good enough job. I will check into the incident which Mr. Zoe makes reference to and report back to him. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 5, Oral Questions. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This question is for the Government Leader. On November 19, 1992 I was appalled by the answer given by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs to my honourable colleague from Deh Cho. When the Member asked Mr. Kakfwi if he had received an official apology from the federal government for the shameful conduct of military personnel assigned to operation Nordic Reliant, the Minister responded and I quote "I will check my mail and get back to the Member." That response is not satisfactory. It borders on an irresponsible statement. These soldiers slaughtered our caribou with automatic weapons and were dealt with very lightly by the justice system. My question is, while the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is busy checking his mail, will the Premier make a commitment that she will write to the Honourable Marcel Masse, federal Minister of National Defence and the Commanding Officer for Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Regiment in Winnipeg, to request a formal apology for the conduct of these military personnel during their stay in the Northwest Territories?

Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to assure the honourable Member that Mr. Kakfwi has assured me that he stayed at work until 9:30 last night checking the mail in hopes that he would find some correspondence that would at least acknowledge what had happened, recognize the extent of that type of behaviour, the effect it had on people up here to give due respect to the people of the Northwest Territories and the environment. However, he did not find anything. Yes, I will take the recommendation and act upon it. Thank you.

Item 5, Oral Questions. Item 6, Written Questions. Item 7, Returns to Written Questions. Item 8, Replies to Opening Address. We will take a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

I call the House back to order. Item 9, Replies to Budget Address.

Mr. Speaker, I believe you do not have a quorum.

There is no quorum. Clerk, would you please ring the bell? The Chair recognizes a quorum. Item 9, Replies to Budget Address. Mr. Pudluk.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just a short reply. Yesterday, the Minister of Finance gave us a very good statement and I appreciate his statement. He talked about the things that he wants to change and how the communities can be involved. It is not the first time I have heard someone talk like that. The government is always saying that they want to do this and that and change things in regards to finances.

From the time I first became a Member of the Legislative Assembly in 1975, there have been a lot of speeches about how money can be effectively used. Finance Ministers talk about this all the time saying that the communities have to be involved. If I could read along with the Minister of Finance all the Hansard reports, they all say the same things. I know, and I have seen, when the government is spending their money and when they give the money out to the contractors for building houses, and sewer pipes, and airports, you never know how they spend it. The government really does not know, you do not really see how they are spending the money that you give out for contracting. I use this as an example. The contractors doing work such as housing and pipes and whatever else in the community, they do not hire local people. They are always trying to look for people they can pay less to work for them, even though the transportation from the southern provinces will be very expensive. Once they get to the communities to do their contract work, they try to hire people that they can pay the least. There are people in the communities who are there and are not hired.

That is just an example and I think we all know that the contractors get hired from Newfoundland because Newfoundlanders can be paid just a little bit of money to go to work because there are no jobs in Newfoundland. When they hire those people from Newfoundland, they let them work for six months, they could call them northerners after six months.

For this reason, they do not mind paying for their airfare and their accommodation. The only thing they are thinking of is that as long as they can pay this individual as little as possible, that is all they care about.

Every year, when the budget address is being made, we hear really good things that the government is going to do and wants to do and saying that the communities have to be involved is what we hear every year during the budget session. If you cannot see what is really going on in the communities, as a government, the people that you hire as contractors do not do what you say that they do. When you are living right in the community, it is very tiring to have it happen over and over again. You did your budget address. It just seems that after you have done your budget address that is is over for you. If you are living right in the communities, it does not happen like that.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to make this statement because the communities have to get more out of the funding that is spent by the government and I wanted to let the Members know about it. Like I said before, I will make my reply brief, and I would like to say thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Replies to Budget Address. Item 10, Petitions. Item 11, Reports of Standing and Special Committees. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to give the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates. It has now been a full year since the beginning of the 12th Legislative Assembly. In that short time, the Standing Committee on Finance has reviewed two Capital Estimates and one Main Estimate. It has been a busy and productive year for all of us.

During this review, the Standing Committee on Finance was pleased to see that many of the recommendations of our previous two reports have been incorporated into the 1993-94 Capital Estimates.

In our report on the 1992-93 Capital Estimates, the Standing Committee on Finance recommended that the 1993-94 Capital Estimates be presented to the Legislative Assembly in the form of a five year capital plan so that the Legislative Assembly has an indication of what the capital priorities are, how they are to be achieved and what they will ultimately cost.

Mr. Speaker, we asked for it and we got it. We are pleased to report that the government provided the committee with probably the best capital document to date, indicating for the first time the capital projects planned for the next five years and, more importantly, their substantiation. In addition, the government has sought input into the capital planning process from both local governments and Members of the Legislative Assembly. These are major improvements to the capital planning process, improvements that will make the capital budget of this government more reflective of the real capital needs of our communities.

The committee was also pleased that the Capital Estimates are being considered by this Legislative Assembly in November. This change in the timing of the budgetary process allows government sufficient time to prepare local resources for training and employment and prepare tender calls far in advance of the summer construction season. The committee expects that, in future, we will see tender calls in July or August.

The committee has stated, on several occasions, that the capital budget has to be a fundamental, economic instrument of this government. We feel that, along with other initiatives such as the introduction of the revised Business Incentive Policy and the negotiation of regional contracts, these changes in the capital planning process represent another important step in maximizing northern participation and employment in the construction of capital facilities.

However, Mr. Speaker, the committee believes that government can go even further in improving the capital planning process. In this respect, we have recommended that the government provide details of the 5 Year Capital Plan to the respective communities as soon as possible. In this way, communities and local contractors can prepare for future construction. Recognizing that future years' plans are not unchangeable, communities can also provide government with valuable feedback on the changes to their capital plan priorities. In this and in the following ways, the capital plan can be further strengthened and enhanced.

Mr. Speaker, on the major issues, the Standing Committee on Finance identified several major issues during its review with the Minister and government departments in October. These included:

A capital program strategy. Mr. Speaker, what is the purpose of the government's capital program and how well is it meeting its goals? The seemingly simple question still remains unanswered in the Capital Estimates. Essentially, the committee asks, what are the capital priorities of the Northwest Territories and how we best meet these needs with the limited resources available?

The committee believes that the answer to this question is available from the information gathered through the Capital Needs Assessment. It is then reasonable to expect that Cabinet would have the following major concerns in this important area.

1. How best to allocate the scarce budget resources between capital and the main O & M Estimates.

2. How best to allocate the scarce capital budget, Mr. Zoe says "among competing government programs and communities so they are allocated fairly and equitably in a manner to meet urgent needs and to support other important socio-economic programs and policies of the Government of the Northwest Territories such as, economic and municipal development."

3. How best to design capital projects so they can satisfy the reasonable needs of the user and represent an equitable and fair social benefit, are cost effective to construct and minimize life-cycle costs in terms of O & M expenditures.

4. How best to build the required number of capital projects at minimum cost to the capital purse while maximizing other socio-economic needs such as job creation, employment training, etc. The committee found that Cabinet does not require departments and agencies to provide these and, therefore, does not get reliable information as to how fairly and equitably capital projects have been allocated throughout all the communities of the Northwest Territories. Hence, Cabinet does not know how well one of their major programs is dealing with public problems.

Accordingly, the Cabinet is in no position to assure the committee of the Legislative Assembly that the capital program has been allocated fairly and equitably and is currently being operated with due regard to efficiency, economy and effectiveness.

Mr. Speaker, since our committee's work began, we have noted that the government has initiated a review of the capital planning process and has agreed to an independent capital program evaluation to be undertaken in February of 1994.

A by-product of the review of the capital planning process should be to articulate a clear capital program strategy and specify the information to be provided by departments and agencies so that Cabinet can evaluate the capital program and take measures for improvement if and where necessary.

On capital priorities. Exhibit one of the report, summarizes the Five Year Capital Plan priorities by activity. In other words, it shows where the government is planning to focus its capital expenditures over the next five years. The government informed us on a number of occasions that each year, during the planning and funding allocation process, the relative priority of departmental capital programs are evaluated in relationship to such critical factors as:

1. The overall Legislative and Cabinet priorities;

2. New developments and changing circumstances; and

3. Community and public input.

Generally, the committee is supportive of the government's focus on the major capital areas of public housing, school, community works and transportation which account for over half of capital expenditures planned. Nevertheless, during our review, the committee found specific projects that simply do not meet this criteria. For example, the committee failed to see the relative merits of such projects as: relocating the Enterprise weigh scale at a cost of $1.5 million; the reconstruction and paving of the Yellowknife access road near the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre at a cost of $3. million; an addition to the Iqaluit Museum at an overall cost of $2. million; or office renovations for the Department of Finance. We saw no evidence in the project's substantiation that the benefit exceeded the cost for these and other capital projects.

As we have stated before, in difficult financial times, we must focus our limited resources on providing the basic services and infrastructure within all regions of the territories. The committee remains concerned that standards are too high for specific projects.

Not enough effort has been made to standardize design for capital facilities and officials and political leaders are not showing the same prudent caution when spending public funds as if it were their own. We have got to get the message across to the departments and agencies that we do not have a bottomless pit of money.

During our review, our committee found many cases where the estimates for capital projects had changed substantially from the previous years. In particular, the committee noted that the Arctic College Applied Arts Centre in Fort Smith increased by $1.3 million or over 17 per cent over the past year's estimate and the Fort Smith Water Treatment Plant increased $1.7 million. This degree of inaccuracy is unacceptable in the capital planning process. The committee believes that it may be necessary to obtain the appropriate expertise to rectify these capital planning errors.

Mr. Speaker, with respect to unorganized communities. Members raised some serious concerns over how capital infrastructure is being provided to smaller communities. There are no policy guidelines in place. It is our observation that, without clear guidelines, it can be said that capital infrastructure is awarded more on influence than need. We have recommended that clear guidelines be established.

While the capital planning document provided to the committee was a significant improvement, we do have some further recommendations for refinement. Nowhere in the budgetary process do we know what the total impact of these capital projects will be on the ongoing operation and maintenance costs to government. Without these costs, the committee cannot determine whether we can afford them over the long-term.

In future documents, the committee will expect to know the ongoing cost of each project and in total. To take this a step further, strategic capital investments should be considered which will eventually, or actually, reduce ongoing operating costs to the government.

On Surplus Assets and Privatization, Mr. Speaker. The Strength at Two Levels Report recommended disposal of all surplus assets. The committee looks forward to receiving the government's response, an action plan, for identifying and selling surplus assets and related privatization opportunities in order to free up much needed funds currently invested in capital assets.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Finance again recognizes that the government has put much effort into this Capital Budget and have responded, in detail, to our previous recommendations which are referred to in appendix three of our report. While we appreciate the efforts made to improve the capital plan, the committee believes that significant improvements can be made. To that end, the committee respectfully submits a list of 34 recommendations for consideration to this Assembly.

Specific concerns have also been identified in the departmental reviews which are part of this report. It should be noted that these recommendations do not include our review of the capital estimates for the N.W.T. Housing Corporation. We will report separately on this budget once it has been finalized by the corporation and presented to the committee.

Motion To Move The Report Of The Standing Committee On Finance Into Committee Of The Whole

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by my honourable colleague from Nahendeh, that the report of the Standing Committee on Finance be received and moved into committee of the whole, for consideration. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Your motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Committee Report No. 1, Report of the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates will be placed on the agenda of Committee of the Whole. Item 11, Reports of Standing and Special Committees. Item 12, Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills. Item 13, Tabling of Documents. Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 11-12(3), the statement of claim filed in the Federal Court of Canada concerning agreements for the delivery, administration, and funding of hospital services in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Tabling of Documents. Item 14, Notices of Motion. Item 15, Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills. Item 16, Motions. Item 17, First Reading of Bills. Mr. Pollard.

The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 1 has had first reading. Item 18, Second Reading of Bills. Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput, that Bill 1, Appropriation Act No. 1, 1993-94 be read for the second time. Mr. Speaker, this bill would authorize the Government of the Northwest Territories to make capital expenditures for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1994. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 1 has had second reading and accordingly the bill stands referred to Committee of the Whole. Item 18, Second Reading of Bills. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife

South, that Bill 5, an Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act be read for the second time.

Mr. Speaker, this bill would amend the Social Assistance Act to provide for panels of appeal committees and the appeal board to hear appeals to protect the confidentiality of information received by an employee or member of an appeal committee or the appeal board, to change the regulation-making power respecting forms to be used under the act, to allow regulations to be made respecting allowances paid under the act, and permit such regulations to come into force before they are registered. Thank you.

The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 5 has had second reading and accordingly the bill stands referred to a committee. Item 18, Second Reading of Bills. Mr. Kakfwi.