I would like to thank the Minister and witnesses for appearing before us. Thank you very much. Before we proceed with the other departments, we will take a five minute break.

--- SHORT RECESS

Will we now go to the next department? Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

The Department of Government Services. Mr. Ningark, would you like to make your opening remarks?

Department Of Government

Services

Minister's Opening

Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present the 1992-93 capital estimates for the Department of Government Services. The requirement for the department is $4,790,000. It represents a 39 per cent decrease over the 1991-92 revised forecast of $7,835,000.

The department mandate is to provide specific services to government departments, boards and agencies, and to make an inventory of specific products available for sale to the public where these cannot be provided by the private sector without adversely affecting equitable distribution or pricing. The capital program of the Department of Government Services funds the infrastructure required in the provision of these services.

The system and computer services activity delivers specialized services related to the development, support and operation of government's computer-based information processing systems. Capital funding of $100,000 will be used to purchase and install data communications equipment.

The supply services activity provides storage and distribution centres for departments in Yellowknife and five regions. Capital funding of $50,000 will purchase a replacement forklift for Rankin Inlet warehouse. The petroleum products activity provides heating oil, gasoline, naphtha, and aviation fuel to 44 communities not served by the private sector. The capital requirement of $4,640,000 includes the planning and construction of new bulk fuel storage tanks, upgrades to existing storage facilities, and the purchase of fuel delivery trucks.

Mr. Chairman, this completes my opening remarks. Mr. Chairman, I will be pleased to respond to your questions. Thank you.

Thank you. Would you like to bring in your witnesses?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

You may proceed. General comments? Mr. Todd.

Maybe I will wait, Mr. Chairman, until Mr. Ningark brings forward his witnesses and introduces them. Would that be okay?

Say it again, Mr. Todd.

I will wait to make some general comments until after Mr. Ningark has introduced his witnesses.

Thank you. Mr. Ningark, I would like you to introduce your witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my right is my deputy minister for Government Services, Lee Horn. To my left is Susan Cunningham, director of finance and administration.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Todd.

Comments From The Standing Committee On Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When the standing committee on finance reviewed Government Services' budget, simply put, we felt that we are paying too much money for things. We are paying too much money for computers, furniture and vehicles. It seems that the government consistently wants to buy the top of the line, and, in fact, the perception in the communities, rightly or wrongly, is that the standards for purchasing things are too high. We feel that government should be setting an example by putting up with less. The Government Leader said we have to put up with less, and we all should put up with less. We have to take a closer look at the kinds of standards we are setting when it comes to the supply of government furniture, when it comes

to computerization and a whole variety of services and purchases the government makes.

We do recognize that Government Services is the service department; however, nobody can abdicate their responsibilities in analyzing and looking at the kinds of standards and the kinds of buying, and the way in which we are doing things. It is our contention that Government Services is the department responsible for government buying, and their purchasing policy should be re-evaluated to see if, in fact, the current standards and qualities that we are purchasing are really required. Is it required to have top of the line furniture in some of the staff houses? Is it required to buy the best computers? Is it required to have vehicles that are, in our opinion, perhaps somewhat luxurious? It is these kinds of issues that we think have got to be addressed.

I am not sure it is acceptable that everybody needs a computer. I am not sure it is acceptable that we need top of the line computers. I think it was proven by some Members of the standing committee on finance that you can get the same results -- and I use computers as an example -- with buying a lesser quality computer.

I find it interesting that in Keewatin Region we are buying $20,000 or $30,000 vehicles, and the private sector is buying $10,000 vehicles. They do the same function. They have four wheels, an engine and doors. So I think that we have got to take a hard look at that. We feel that that is essential. It really should be the responsibility of Government Services to do that.

The other area of concern we had when we looked at the budget, and it was a large concern because there are large dollars involved, was fuel tank construction. There are enormous amounts of money with respect to this. For example, the fuel tank construction was totalling over six million dollars, and this was seriously questioned by Mr. Bernhardt, who is not here today, as to the justification and the kind of community consultation that took place with respect to it. There was some concern that perhaps this thing may have been, historically, politically driven, not necessarily a requirement in the community. However, we can debate that as we get on with the budget.

In Gjoa Haven, the relocation of the fuel tank construction totalling $5.2 million. We were told that it is driven solely at the community's request to move it outside of the community. In these difficult financial times -- and it has been there for this long -- can we really afford these kinds of luxuries at this particular time? We felt, at the time, that it was not as financially justified as it should be.

There was some concern expressed by our good friend, Mr. Zoe, who is not here, with respect to Snare Lake. It does not have the bulk fuel storage and it was in the plan for 1993-94; however, it was our understanding that it was in previous budgets. We would like the department to take a hard look at that.

The committee asked the Minister for more information on these two significant tank constructions in Coppermine and Gjoa Haven. We have received some information on that, and we asked for further justification on the expenditure, which we have received.

The committee will be recommending through motion and discussion on the budget that all vehicle purchasing and leasing be deferred until a plan is developed on general purchasing and a leasing strategy is in place and approved by the Assembly, reflecting the current fiscal realities. I find it somewhat ironic that we are buying people top of the line furniture, and yet some of our people in the communities do not have running water. To me, this is an appalling waste of money.

Cabinet must review all the government standards for purchasing and leasing of all goods and services to ensure there will be no spending where no fundamental needs exist. Clearly, there has to be a second look taken at purchasing by Government Services. We have to ask ourselves if we need it. Can we afford it'? Can we do without it'? It is our contention, in a number of cases, that that is exactly what we believe should happen. If we do not need it and cannot afford it, then we should do without it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. General comments. Do you want to go line by line? Okay. Department of Government Services, equipment acquisition, headquarters, total region, $100,000. Mr. Todd.

I wonder if we could be permitted to make some general motions prior to our proceeding with line by line expenditures?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Thank you. There seems to be general agreement. Please proceed, Mr. Todd.

Motion To Defer Vehicle Purchase And Leasing Until Plan Is Developed, Carried

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the committee recommends to cabinet that all vehicle purchasing and leasing be deferred until a plan is developed and a general purchasing and leasing strategy is approved by the Legislative Assembly.

Your motion is in order and is being distributed. To the motion, Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, the motion is in keeping with the concern we have about the type of vehicle and other purchasing we are doing. Can we, in fact, afford to purchase at the standards that are being set? It seems to me, and to us, that the standards are far too high and we have to take a hard look at it. If we do not take a hard look at it, this standing committee, in future, will have to determine whether it is going to recommend or suggest changes in the purchasing. Thank you.

To the motion. Mr. Lewis.

I would like to speak to this motion, Mr. Chairman. Although I do not buy lots of vehicles, there are not that many choices when it comes right down to it about where you can purchase vehicles in the Northwest Territories. It has always been my policy to try to buy a vehicle at the closest possible place in the support of local business. I do not drive out a thousand miles to buy something just to save a few bucks.

The concern I have is this, Mr. Chairman. A local contractor, and someone who supplies vehicles, told me in no uncertain terms that it would be far simpler for him and save him an awful lot of time if instead of simply writing a tender asking for people to bid on the supply of vehicles to the Government of the Northwest Territories, to simply put down that they want a Ford truck, The only place you are going to get that is from Hay River. Instead of simply saying this is the kind of general vehicle we want, it is pretty clear that what they want is a Ford truck. So, why not put on there that you want a Ford truck of this kind, and this is where you get it from?

I get this every year from local suppliers who do not sell Ford trucks. That is why I support this particular motion. Make it quite clear what the rules are so that people do not waste their time bidding on things which they know they are not going to get even though, on many occasions, they may be the low bidder. Thank you.

To the motion.