(Translation) Do you have opening remarks, Mr. Pollard?

Minister's Opening

Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am appearing before the committee today on behalf of the Management and Services Board of this Assembly to present the capital estimates for the Legislative Assembly for 1992-93.

Mr. Chairman, the Legislative Assembly has only one capital item for 1992-93 which is the Legislative Assembly building project. The Management and Services Board, on behalf of all Members of the 12th Legislative Assembly, is responsible for the management of the Legislative Assembly building project. The board is continuing to work on the project which was authorized by the 11th Legislature and we have been providing ongoing monitoring and management of the program design and construction.

The funds requested are to complete site preparation and commence construction as well as purchase furniture and equipment for the Legislative Assembly building project. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Todd.

The standing committee on finance has no general comments on the Legislative Assembly at this time. I have some personal observations I would like to make and I will make them during the general comments.

General comments. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to make it clear that my views on this particular expenditure are as an ordinary Member and not as the chairman of the standing committee on finance. I want to make it clear because I am frankly and completely, totally opposed to the $25 million Legislative Assembly building. I am amazed that this project is occurring at a time when government is telling us we cannot afford any of the basic needs of our citizens -housing, health and social services. My primary concern is the cost of this project to the government.

When a decision to construct this building was first made public on January 18, 1991, the cost of the construction of this building was estimated to be $12 million. The cost of construction is now estimated to be closer to $15 million.

Mr. Chairman, I realize that the actual construction costs for the building itself will be covered by the Legislative Assembly's bond issue. However, there are over $10 million in associated costs related to this project for furnishings, audio-visual equipment, landscaping, site preparation and construction of an access road. For whatever reason, and I am not about to speculate anybody's motives, I do not think this point was made clear, if made at all, at the time that this project was unveiled. Was the public told it was going to cost $22 million? I do not remember seeing it.

Rightly or wrongly, the perception exists among the general public that the cost to the government for this project would be minimal. I know the Minister of Finance knows my reaction when I was asked to review the $10 million additional expenditure.

The second concern I have is the sheer size of the new building. It is close to 50,000 square feet. We are currently using only 20,000 square feet at this location. I realize in my tiny little office that we are somewhat cramped in this location and that the new building will contain spaces for offices for cabinet and for a library. However, do we really need another 30,000 square feet, and at what cost?

To my knowledge the cabinet has not even committed to moving into the space on a permanent basis. Most ordinary Members, like myself, spend over half the year in our constituencies. A $25 million complex for a part-time Legislature? It is unbelievable.

We are told that if division does not occur, and we all hope it does, it may be necessary to build another phase -- I nearly had a heart attack when I heard that -- to accommodate the Members from the Eastern Arctic. An additional 50,000 square feet over and above the 50,000 square feet that we are building now to accommodate 24 Members. It reminds me of a comment made by the famous actor, Oscar Wilde, who said, "Nothing succeeds like excess."

My concern is: Are there any other hidden costs associated with this building? For example, not only will each Member and Executive Member have their own offices, but they have offices for assistants as well. As all Members are aware, there is currently an allowance for $20,000 available for Members to hire constituency staff. This allowance is not enough or sufficient to hire full-time staff in my constituency, let alone in Yellowknife. Are we going to increase the MLAs constituency allowances so we can have our executive assistants sifting in the office across to us? How many new employees will be needed to run this building? What are the heating and electrical costs for a large building? I would suggest that the operations and maintenance costs of the Legislative Assembly will increase dramatically when we move into this building.

I cannot in any consciousness support this appropriation. I cannot sincerely justify the expenditure of $10 million in direct costs for this project when there are people in my riding who do not have decent housing, have not got running water and have not got a damn job. There are too many other important priorities that we should be spending our money on.

There is a famous English playwright called Hector Hugh Monroe who said, "All decent people live beyond their incomes now adays and those who are not respectable live beyond other people's. A few gifted people manage to do both." I guess all of us are the gifted few in the Northwest Territories. I cannot, and I will not, support the $10 million expenditure for the Legislative Assembly building. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. If not, we will go page by page. Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Buildings And Works, Total Capital

Page 01-9 on the capital estimates. Legislative Assembly, buildings and works, headquarters, total region, $3,163,000. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Minister

Mr. Chairman, we are fairly confident of the numbers. So far, the bids that have been received have come extremely close to budget, if not a little bit under at times. This is a good year to be building because there are an awful lot of people who want to work, and consequently their prices are sharp. So we consider these numbers to be as accurate as they can be. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dent.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the Management and Services Board made a conscious decision to show all aspects of expenditure that would be incurred with this Legislative Assembly building. So I am not aware of any other department that is holding funds that would go toward this building. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Todd.

I am curious -- actually I was flabbergasted, not curious. In the event that division does not occur, which we all hope it does, why is there a requirement for another 50,000 square feet. What is it feet? That was the presentation that was made by Mr. Elkin and the other gentleman. I was just sort of overcome and I have had some time to think about it, and I am trying to figure what are we going to do with it.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I apologize to Mr. Todd if I have mislead him but phase 11 is not 50,000 square feet. Phase 11 would be to allow the support staff for the

Executive to move into that particular area. As you know, Mr. Chairman, the support staff is presently located in the Laing Building, and the Executive have not made a decision to move into the new Legislative Assembly building permanently, but if there were a phase 11 it would be for the support staff to move closer to the Executive, and it is not in the order of 50,000 square feet. So once again I apologize if I mislead Mr. Todd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

In the House of Commons and places like that they run these cafeterias and they subsidize them, which I think is an appalling waste of money. How are we going to operate this cafeteria where we get our nummies? Are we going to operate this on a profit-making basis, subsidized, government employees, contracts? I would like to know about that.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, during the design of the building MLAs were consulted on the kinds of things that they would like to see in the building, and I know Members that were here during the last Legislature went through that whole process of being interviewed and filling in all those forms. I think one of the things that was most popular was the ability to have a cafeteria or some kind of restaurant where Members could eat. The consideration that it was somewhat away from downtown, further than this facility, was another thing that prompted MSB, Management and Services Board, to put in a coffee shop/cafeteria into this building. It will be let on a contract to an operator and the operator will obviously have to recover his or her cost, and presumably they would want to make a profit as well, so it will not be subsidized. It will be done on contract, and Members and their guests will have to pay for food or beverages purchased from that cafeteria. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.