This is page numbers 464 - 491 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 485

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the Member is correct. Technically, the plebiscite vote is on whether that particular boundary is acceptable or not to be used for the purpose of dividing the Territories. Technically, that is the, question. It has always been the common view that people, particularly in the West, will not vote or will vote massively against any boundary regardless of how viable it may be as long as they do not have some constitutional assurance of what they will be faced with. That has been consistently reflected over the last 10 years. If we are going to divide as Inuvialuit, as Dene/Metis, if we are going to be in the West, then we have to have some assurances before division takes place that there is a constitution -- a future government that

we will be comfortable with before division goes ahead. This has been one of the conditions. This is why I raised it. The Member is right. It is not really explicit, but the fact is that is what needed to be done before we felt people would take a vote. We felt it would be a useless exercise to set up a plebiscite vote if we did not do anything here in the West. That is what the Legislature had agreed to make moneys available for last year in preparation. There have been instances in the committee where at least one group asked for additional money. It has been rejected or vetoed by other Members because they felt it was not well thought out, and they did not feel it was proper to come forward at this time. I know that if there is a request by political leaders to ask this Legislature for additional money, as lead Minister for this, I would bring it to the House to be considered. How well I would be able to defend is another point. That is what I would do if I was so directed by that group. Thank you.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Lewis.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Chairman, it is the same issue, but it relates to how this is going to be perceived by the public that is going to be asked to vote. The government will not be seen as being fair and even-handed if money is going to be given to one group to promote -- although it is called consultation, the public sees it as a promotional campaign rather than just a simple matter of giving people information -- a vote. It would not seem to be even-handed if the government is obviously putting itself in the position of supporting a group of people to do something which is denied to another group of people.

I understand the Minister's response when he says in the West there could be as much as five million dollars spent over the next three years in developing a constitution for what is left over when division takes place. I would have thought that with division, the priority -- because things are so much further advanced than in the East, people have their act together and they know where they are going -- would be for the constitutional development of the East. They may get division. They will have a claim, and so on, but the actual constitution itself -- if that is the issue -- would seem to be a greater priority in the East than it is in the West because they are the ones that have the claim and it is very, very clear cut. Everybody understands it.

My major concern is that, as somebody who has followed this debate since 1965 -- and I am talking about the old-timers that have been around for so long and watched this and are probably sick and tired of it by now -- when they see the map on May 4th -- the people who have not watched every little move that has taken place -- a lot of the old-timers will say that in 1965, when we wanted to divide and the West wanted to go its own way to become a territory and eventually a province, the line which was in the federal act in Ottawa was a line that went straight up, a line of longitude. This line that they have worked out makes the West just tiny compared to what it would have been had that act passed in 1965. That is the response you are going to get from a lot of the oldtimers. Really, what we thought would be a territory that could eventually become self-sustaining, is really much reduced. I have not worked out the exact difference in the size it would be now compared to what it would have been then, but there is a substantial difference in the way the land will be divided.

Since the government is putting itself in the position of being seen to promote a particular line -- this is the way it will be perceived -- without the people in the West having a similar kind of privilege, my guess is that it will have a negative impact in the West if you are seen to be not even-handed and being fair and so on in the way you deal with it. This is being perceived as a promotional campaign by this

government rather than the simple question that the people are being asked to vote on. That is the perception that this government is going to have to live with after May 4th if it is still perceived that our government is putting itself in the position of promoting a yes vote on this line.

I would like to follow up on a question I asked yesterday about the actual position of the government and whether Ministers are going to have to take a particular position on this. I am not drifting too far away from the item, Mr. Chairman, because I think it is relevant to the whole business of how we deal with this question. There is only one item in the budget that deals with the cost of this plebiscite in addition to the amount that is in the Legislative Assembly budget.

I would like to ask the Government Leader the code of behaviour. How is the government going to be perceived as being even-handed? Are you going to have a unified position as a cabinet on how this is going to be approached? Are Ministers going to be allowed to promote a yes or no vote if they feel so inclined? Is there going to be a position of the government that you are going to try to carry forward? It is very important for us to know exactly how this is going to be handled by each of the Members of this Assembly because it is very, very close. This is the kind of item that affects public opinion.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 486

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Madam Government Leader.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, the government or the cabinet has not taken a position as a cabinet representing this government.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Lewis.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I presume then that each individual Executive Council Member will be free to pursue a free vote, at least some kind of understanding then that each Minister, as an MLA representing a particular area in the NWT, can go about either promoting or not promoting this issue as he or she sees fit. Is that the case?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 486

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Madam Government Leader.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, that is correct at this time.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Antoine.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I asked the Minister of Aboriginal Rights if there was a request from a group in the West, I think he said that if the ad hoc political group from the West had vetoed a prior request by one group for additional funding, it seemed to indicate to me that this is the position the government has and I do not think it is really fair. Because, if there is any group in the West that is going to be leaning toward a "no" vote and if the position is going to be based on the veto, then it is not fair because publicly in the newspapers the Inuvialuit have already indicated they are going to support the "yes" and the president of the Metis Nation, Gary Bohnet, has also indicated that he is going to advocate a "yes" vote. So if it is going to be based on a veto for a request for additional money, then already the answer is no. Is that what you are saying?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, that is not what am advocating at all. For instance, if the group said, "We feel there is sufficient work being done in the commission and there is a need and we all agree we want to go out there and want to be involved in the campaign, whether we support it or

not, all of us agree we want money." Then it would come forward. I do not want to have it misconstrued. One of the concerns that a request for additional moneys came forward, was not because of the political position of a certain organization, but the fact that some money had been given to all the different groups and some of the groups could not initially provide any kind of justification for having spent the money that they did and then coming back and asking for more.

It put some of the other groups in an awkward situation, and myself as a Minister, because I know if I come back here and ask for additional money, I have to be able to say that all money that was spent out there was well used it here are the results of it. I just feel that I am getting set up to be seen as somebody that is seen as somebody that is against a particular group and not with another, and I do not think I want to end up there. The fact is that if the groups all said, "We think there should be a campaign made, people should be visited, communities should be informed, the *yes" people, the "maybe" people and the "we do not know" people and ..absolutely no" people should all go around and campaign.' I would bring it forward to this Legislature because it is not the government that made the political agreements and the funding allocations in the first place, it was this Legislature.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

I just want to make Members aware that while I have allowed the debate to occur, that generally the rules do not allow this kind of debate to occur. I just wanted to have clarification on a number of issues, because Rule 79(2) says, *Speeches in committee of the whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration.' Not the principle of the issue but the clause itself and the matters that are being discussed are moving away from that point. But I do want to clarify that with Members here.

The other point I wanted to make is that like other decisions that have been made in the House and comments about government upholding decisions of previous governments, the same principle applies, that this Assembly is not beholden to a decision of the past Assembly the same as this government is not beholden to the past government. The same principle applies. If Members could be cognizant of the rules as they are laid out. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, if the Member for Deh Cho is interested, we can look at convening a meeting of that committee. We do have another meeting scheduled at some time, but because of the session it is difficult to plan. So that can be considered. But again, I cannot even try to schedule a meeting like that without doing extensive consultation first.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Is it the committee's wish we go back to detail? Mr. Gargan.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

The allocation to the Tungavik Federation of Nunavut -- yesterday on the radio TFN said they do not have enough money to carry out all of the campaigns that are required. Is the Minister looking at further funding to TFN?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the TFN is waiting for this Legislature to approve the money so that they can put it in the bank and cover their costs. That is what the difficulty is. As to the comment that may have been made that it is not enough money, it is never enough money, but we expect TFN to carry on other activities at their own cost.

Executive, Total O And M, Agreed

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Total department, special warrants, $300,000. Agreed?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Total department, not previously authorized, $125,500. Agreed?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Finance

Government Accounting, Total O and M,

Agreed

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Finance, O and M, government accounting, not previously authorized, $500,000. Agreed?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Debt Financing, Total O and M, Agreed