Thank you, Mr. Morin. General comments, Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess to add to what Mr. Nerysoo said, I think it is important for the record, if nothing else, to indicate that the Northwest Territories also has the fastest growing population in North America. Within the territories itself, if I can speak somewhat selfishly, the Keewatin Region is growing faster than anywhere else. So, the impact that we have got now with a shortage of 3,584 housing units will only further compound itself with the population explosion that we have got.

There is no question that the private market simply will not, and cannot, pick up that slack. I think it is important for those Members not familiar with the development of private housing to understand that even in today's world under the current conditions, banks and financial institutions are extremely reluctant to lend, even with long term leases, significant sums of money. In particular, it is related to real estate. I know I am not talking from just my own personal experience; I know that is a fact. So, even if the private sector wanted to pick it up at a far greater pace than it is currently picking up, particularly in the smaller areas, I think there would be some serious problems in relation to financing. We have got to be aware of that.

I said to somebody the other day that, this financial situation with Olympia & York has had a real impact on the Northwest Territories. The fact of the matter is, that the lending institutions are viewed in real estate and development of real estate, in a much lesser light than they did a few years ago, because of those serious financial problems we have got with these big international majors. It does affect the smaller communities because the banks are not shrinking that explosion, they are expanding it. Even though we wanted to, if there was a desire to provide to expand, and all the rent, and income supplement programs for example, you still have got to find the mortgage money to build this stuff. I could tell you that two years ago you used to be able to get in based on 10 percent and 90 percent mortgage, that simply does not exist, and I think that is an important argument for the Minister to make when you are dealing with the feds. It does not exist right now, unless you are living in Yellowknife, you might get it, but I tend to doubt it.

Aside from the constitution and the arguments, if we were looking for an alternative, and I know that recently you have advertised for an expansion of Rent Income Supplement Program, which I support. Unless the developers have got deep pockets, they simply are not going to get the kind of funding that they have been accustomed to getting in former years. So, that is an important financial consideration.

I think that we need to move forward with some kind of game plan. I mean, I think we have got a bit of a window right now, particularly with the discussions on the Constitution, and the fact that aboriginal issues, if you want, are front and centre. I think there is a limited window, but I do think that we should be taking some advantage of that. We should be saying to the Prime Minister, through the Government Leader, that we should be reconsidering, if you want, our position, on the Constitution. If fundamental basics like housing, which was funded in the past by the federal government, is going to be off-loaded into the territorial government, it seems that this housing issue is only one of many. Last week we heard about the off-loading of health, I mean, what is next?

At some point we have got to take the federal government to task, now maybe this housing issue is it, but if they continue to off-load them, the bubble will burst. There is just not enough money to do the kinds of things that we want to do, so I suggest to you that what we need to develop before the end of the week is some kind of game plan where we all participate. We have got to gather the support of the aboriginal groups at the national level, and raise the profile of this whole issue of social housing for aboriginal people. I can tell you that if we have not got any money in the N.W.T. coffers I do not see where else it is going to come, no matter how well intentioned the expansion of your Rent Supplement Income Program is. If you talk to the developers across the territories, I am sure they will tell you the same thing. So, from my perspective, we need to have a bit of a game plan, and we have got to do it quickly; the window is open, as they say, but we have got to do it quickly.

I think the other thing we have got to consider, and I am sure you are doing it, and that is to help get better value for the dollars that we are spending. I still believe, even though it is somewhat of a contentious issue about building more units, rather than these individual units, I think that we have got to move forward on that, and recognize the reality of building the kind of housing that we have built in the past, even though we were in a better financial position, we just simply cannot keep up with that pace. If we had, for example, as you said earlier, the reinstatement of funding to the 1991 level, we still would be nowhere near catching up. I remember Tom Butters, when he was the Minister of Housing, talking about the same thing, we are 3,500 units short, and that was a few years ago. You have to find another way to get more cost effective housing, and that may be that we have to look at simpler designs, multi-plexis, apartment complexes, etcetera, no matter how concerned people may be about multi-dwelling type of units.

I think really the bottom line for me anyway, and in listening to what you told us today, is that what is required is a concerted, political action by all of us. I think you have got to get to the national level as many of the aboriginal groups as possible. We should be pulling what sympathetic political people there are, whether it is Ms. Blondin, or Mr. Anawak. You should be looking to this side of the House for support as well, and I think that by the end of the week we better have some plan as to how we are going to move forward. There is just no way we are going to find a shortfall of $22 million dollars, I mean we are having a heck of a time right now trying to balance the budget as Mr. Pollard wants to do. If you put any more strain on an already strained system, and what really frustrates me, through the whole budget process it was always the bottom end of the scale that seems to take the most pain. Here we are again, looking at people who are having a difficult time defending themselves. While people who need public and social housing, and it seems that every time I turn around in the short time I have been at this job, are taking the most pain. Whether it is drugs and alcohol, or suicide, or whatever. We are talking about 153 units for next year in comparison with 372, a short fall of about $22 million dollars I believe, that is what he said, right? I mean, we have got to stand up for these people because that is our job; we have got to gather our resources, move forward, and I suspect that is what we should be doing. We should not be afraid to take the federal government on. We should not be afraid to say that we are mad as hell, and we are not going to take it any more. Newfoundland has done it all their lives, and they have not suffered in terms of transfer payments. We should not be reluctant to challenge them, and I suggest to you that is what we should be doing.

We need to get national attention to this issue, the Globe and Mail, the Montreal Star, as that is where we need to get some attention to this issue. So, I would suggest to you Mr. Morin, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman, that this requires political action of the highest level, and we have got to pull in as many aboriginal leaders as we can, and anybody else that is prepared to stand tall with us, we cannot sit back and let the federal government off-load, once again, more responsibility. The responsibility, whether they like it or not, in my opinion, lies with them. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Todd I would like to remind you to watch your language. We are in Yellowknife not in Rankin. We are in the House not in the hotel. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are absolutely right Mr. Todd, we can do the Rent Income Supplement Program, we can change our designs, we can bring new housing programs into place, we can do all kinds of things, we are not going to find $22 million from within, it is as simple as that.

Someone is going to suffer. We are going to have to look to possibly within our own capital budget. It does not seem that there is any money there either. Every time we turn around, the federal government seems to kick us in the head again, when it comes to funding.

I believe that strategy, we started talking about this yesterday. By working through the Premiers office, at the highest level of government, directly with the Prime Minister, I think that this is the door that is open to us right now. I have already met, and informed some of the aboriginal leaders in the Northwest Territories by working with the ordinary Members, Cabinet working together, we should be able to get somewhere. We may not be able to get everything that we want, but we could give it a real good try.

Housing, as all Members know, is the number one priority of this Assembly. There is no other jurisdiction in Canada that spends the percentage of their budget on housing that we do. We all have to go back to our communities, and we all live in those communities, we all have to see what inadequate housing does. I have seen it in mine and I have seen it in many of yours. It is not a pretty site. When you have to pick young men off the street who committed suicide or search for bodies in the river, or see people staggering down the street, kids not in school, people sick, that is all due to inadequate housing.

Constitutional development, aboriginal rights, that is all great stuff, but it does not do us much good without a roof over our head. Our people would never advance without proper housing, that is number one. We learn to take care of our own family. Have our own house, then we started advancing, the rest of the stuff is just basic motherhood statements.

It is a serious issue, we have to address it, and I agree with the Member that we should come up with a strategy together and work together to try to address it.

Mr. Todd.

I guess what I am trying to say, Mr. Chairman, is you have to got to wrap some emotion around the issue here. We have got to get some national attention to it. We need to get some people in the press talking it up on our behalf. This is not a bureaucratic exercise. We are talking about the guys from the bottom end of scale in the communities who require public housing.

What I am suggesting to you is let us get some emotion wrapped around this thing. Let us get some people that have some skill in getting us the kind of publicity that is necessary and let us go take them to task.

Negotiations are fine, I do not care if the Government Leader is negotiating with Brian Mulroney, that is fine, that is part of the strategy. We need to balance that out with some public argument rather than back room lobbying. We have gone that route, and it has got us nowhere. With all due respect, you have tried to negotiate, my understanding is, to reinstate the funding of the 1991 levels. You have been told by the Minister, the federal Minister, that they are not prepared to do that.

They impact of it is, and I am just repeating it, that we build 153 units versus 372. We are sitting here in September, there is a possibility of a national election coming in the new year, in the spring. Now is the time to hit these guys, be very aggressive and be very public, in my best opinion, to see if we can make some impact on them.

That is all I am suggesting. At the same time, I would recognize that there is a requirement for subtlety, something that I am not known for, subtle negotiations at the Cabinet level.

Let us get some profile to this issue so that people recognize that it is an important one in the territories. The impact that it is going to have on us, the people who are on the bottom end of the scale, and lets us see if we can influence them. So far, with all due respect, we have not been too successful, by the polite, civil, bureaucrat agenda. Let us get into a real hard nosed political one.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Morin are you going to respond? Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe you are correct because I can remember the last statement that I made in this House, when I first informed the House of the cuts and how it would affect us. Even our territorial press did not pick it up.

Thank you. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Minister's effort and determination in this. I come, too, from a region where a shortage of housing is acute. Social housing, social service programs, the tradition started by the federal government in the early 1960s. We as a territorial government inherited this dilemma and are trying to deal with it through better education, stay in school, Arctic College programs, employment.

We also try to stimulate the economy so that people can find jobs and be self-sufficient, including acquiring private housing for themselves and their families. It has been extremely difficult to undo what has become a sort of norm or habit, to be independent of the government, to be dependent on the government.

For those who manage to become self-reliant through employment or holding small businesses, they cannot get bank mortgages because they are not allowed to own their own land or lot in their own community. The federal government is now making drastic cuts in public housing, or social housing without making alternative solutions to what has become a very dependent society on government programs, including housing or, especially housing.

They need to be given a different avenue, including land ownership, guaranteed mortgage, and affordable utilities to heat or light their houses. A very simple way, if you are going to cut social housing which we are dependent on now, then there should be a program allowing individuals who have tried to live by themselves, through employment, in wage economy, some avenue to get mortgaging program either by allowing them to own rather than lease in the community, especially in most of the communities in the eastern Arctic, or get some kind of a mortgage guarantee to allow those who are working. If they own their own homes, that will put a little bit of pressure off the social housing needs that exist today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, member for Aivilik. Mr. Minister, would you like to respond to that? General comments. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, first of all, before I ask a question, I would like thank the Minister for the review and I would like to thank the Minister for Housing for working on this and working on it as an important issue. In regard to housing, there is a shortage in the communities, and, as you know, I have brought this issue up many times during our sittings. I am aware that there is a shortage of housing in the communities.

Many times we try to work but always end up having problems with laws that have to be followed. I think that the Ministers, or we as Members, have to work harder to get more housing in the Northwest Territories because I know that in the north, this is a real problem and the population is growing.

Because we live in a very cold climate we have to work and get more housing in the communities. I think we have to work more closely together and find ways of helping the Ministers, and maybe if we work together, we could find funding or get an increase in housing funding. For the people that will have to go to communities to upgrade their education, as you know, our young people are getting their own houses and maybe if we work together we can help them in getting housing available for them.

In the past we have had problems with H.A.P. housing clients and maybe the by-laws could be changed to help the communities also. I just wanted to make a comment in this regard, thank you.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I am also concerned about this announcement that there are going to be cutbacks in public housing. It means a lot of problems. Already in the communities, there are many problems with housing shortages

and what this means, is that there is going to be an even greater problem and burden on the people in the communities who, up to now, have been expecting to have H.A.P. houses and move into public housing in the next few years.

With the housing survey indicating that there is a need for over 3,000 new houses right now and with this cutback it is a very crucial situation that we find ourselves in. I agree with the Minister that housing is very important in the communities, it is a basis to grow from. Once you have a family and a good house then the family can get on with their lives to make things a lot better for themselves.

In many cases in the smaller communities I have seen situations where housing is in really bad condition and people do need more houses rather than less. So, with this announcement, it is a tragic announcement. I am wondering if the Minister could tell me if there has been any immediate, emergency strategies developed by the government in dealing with this situation at this time. Are there any suggestions on how to deal with this issue at this present time? I am here representing people in my constituency who are depending on housing, and with this announcement, I would like to know what I can tell them is in the plans right now. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like I have said in my Minister's statement today, we will not sit back and wait. We will continue to try and get our money reinstated, we are working through the Prime Minister's office. That is the only door that is left open to us, we will have to use that door.

That is also why I am here, to look for suggestions, possibly by using the national press, native organizations, and also by meeting with the Members, and the chairmen of the committee on an ongoing basis to set up strategies. Also, within the Housing Corporation. We are looking at what we have, we are looking at the reality. We will have an alternate strategy developed on how to deal with the funding we do have within the next few weeks.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Comments, Mr. Todd.

Yes, I think in this issue, we have to look at the politics of inclusion not exclusion. However, I think that one point that has been missed, is if we go from 372 units to 153, that is, theoretically, 219 units that we would not be building. I am sure that Mr. Pollard and the Government Leader will be concerned with the net economic impact on the territories.

The building of houses in these communities is usually, the only economic stimulus in some of these small communities. What is the net impact going to be on the jobs? What is the net impact going to be on the materials, the pads, the piling, the hotels, the corporate income tax? So, while I understand that the focus, and it is an important focus, is on housing and the need for housing and that should be the primary thrust, there is another significant argument in this territorial environment.

I will talk about my own riding, and you put two houses in there that can employ six, eight, ten people at a local level for ten to 12 weeks. If you are smart, then they find a way to go onto the federal purse at U.I.C. I do not think you can underplay the economic impact this will have, as well as the housing need impact, and how it could theoretically, increase people on social services. I do not know what the dollar value is of 219 units, probably around $21 to $22 million, as you have said. That has a significant impact on those small communities. That may be an argument worth pursuing particularly where we have a limited economic activity in some of these communities.

I know that over the years that I have been involved in the construction business, there is a number of people who sit and wait for these opportunities to come forward at the community level and find employment.

I would suggest to you that the ripple effect, aside from the obvious housing shortage, is great and has an impact on our overall economic situation and financial situation of this government.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. I agree, that if we do not find some solutions, the impact will be very devastating. I think that we are on the verge of crisis. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with you, Mr. Todd. I have used that argument and I have presented that argument on the ripple effect on the territorial residents. Back some years ago, Greenpeace seemed to have won the seal battle, basically putting the majority of the Inuits out of work in the eastern Arctic, because they no longer were able to harvest seals to sell the hides. The only light for our young people, through a long dark winter, is that hope of getting that job next summer of building houses. I have made that argument with the federal government and will continue to do so. It is going to have a drastic effect on this government. We are going to see social services costs go up, health costs go up, justice costs go up, because all that is a spin-off from it. I have not been able to sit down, my people have not been able to sit down and analyze what these costs are yet, but they will have a devastating effect on us. It is guaranteed we will see businesses go under, if we leave everything the way it is now today, saying that we only build 153 units.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister a question about this $22 million shortfall. Presently we have a lot of construction going on in housing in the north. H.A.P. units are going up in the communities as well as public housing units. There is a lot of money being spent in construction of housing in the north, today. It is going on right now in a lot of the communities.

This $22 million shortfall, would that affect any of these housing programs going on right now today? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Morin.

No.