Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take that as notice and will report to the Member as soon as I have the status of that one. Thank you.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the following document, tabled document 92-12(2), the Aurorales - Expo '92 Financial Statements, August 31, 1992, in English and Inuktitut.

Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: tabled document 9-12(2) Strength at Two Levels; tabled document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government; tabled document 62-12(2), Report on the Northwest Territories Operations at Expo '92 as at May 31, 1992; motion 6, Discussion on Sobriety Clause in Contribution Agreements; committee report 10-12(2), Special Committee on Constitutional Reform Report on the Multilateral Conferences on the Constitution; committee report 17-12(2), Report on the Review of the 1992-93 Main Estimates; committee report 18-12(2), Multilateral Meetings on the Constitution and First Ministers' -Aboriginal Leaders' Conference on the Constitution; Bill 9, the Insurance Act; Bill 31, an Act to Amend to the Student Financial Assistance Act; Bill 33, Appropriation Act No. 2, 1992-93; Minister's statement 82-12(2), Update on National Constitutional Reform Negotiations; Mr. Ningark in the Chair.

Is the committee agreed? Thank you. We were in the Department of Education. We were discussing the matter. Minister of Education, would you like to bring the witness in?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, please, my witnesses are on their way, and will probably be here within three minutes. I would request that since we have no presentation, that we continue with the answers and questions, general comments, etc., that is where we left off, I think. I would request your permission to take a short break, five minutes, until they get here. Thank you.

Mr. Minister, your wish is my command. We will take a break. Fifteen minutes. Thank you.

---SHORT BREAK

The committee will now come to order. We are discussing the Department of Education, and Mr. Minister would you like to bring in your witnesses, please?

Department of Education

(Translation) Yes, Mr. Chairman. The witnesses are here, and they are available now.

(Translation) Yes, Mr. Minister. You may go ahead. Honourable Mr. Arvaluk, would you like to introduce your witnesses please?

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my right, Mr. Hal Gerein, Deputy Minister of Education, and to my right, Paul Devitt, Director of Finance. Thank you.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Minister. To the Department of Education, general comments.

To the Department of Education, are there any general comments? Mr. Gargan. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister, the Honourable James Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly there is no disagreement with some of the ideas and comments that Mr. Zoe has brought up. I also recognize that there has been very poor education planning since it started way back when. Most of it has been processed in a system that was introduced, as a carbon copy of other jurisdictions. In fact, a lot of it was imported directly as to how the missionary education program worked through the federal policy.

I suppose that it was a rather rough road when the northerners themselves, especially aboriginal citizens, decided to have culturally-based, or cultural inclusion as a part of the school system. I do not believe though, that has led to illiteracy of adults, people today. It is more like introducing an education system without proper planning and giving the citizens of the aboriginal people direct participation right from the beginning in terms of planning, administration, and curriculum development.

The Adult Education Program and the cultural department, which we will be touching on later, recognizes that it needs a better monitoring system so that we will know what positive impact it has, how much impact it has. Are they learning to read, to write, to tell stories? Are they becoming more literate in terms of oral communication, or in fact, is literacy in reading not necessarily books, but also communicating with their children, etc.?

We have this pride of participating in the literacy projects but we have no real monitoring projects to find out exactly what positive effects it has on the adult population. I think that the government is not denying that there is a very low number of high school graduates who have entered into the education system or school system. That is rather complex. It has a lot to do with both the Education Department, educators, and the society itself.

Maybe some of us expect that we did not have good enough counselling programs in the school when the students are in the grade five or grade six level, and also when they reach grade nine. We presumed that they would, naturally, go to school until they reached grade 12. For some funny reason we have not recognized that the dropout rate was not acceptable to any society, even an educationally-developing society like the N.W.T.

We are now finally in the last ten years trying to tackle that problem of how to manage our education system. Not too much in the curriculum development because that is being initiated by the divisional boards, not so much on teachers' attitudes, but rather to help students who are in the school who may consider different ways of dropping out of school. We have not tackled their individual problems as effectively as we should have done.

We have introduced counselling programs in most of the schools, but is that enough? We are now trying to involve the parents and the society to participate in the school system especially with the encouragement of the students to stay in school, but should we, as a department, also create a system where more help can be given to the students who may be considering, or having a hard time in school.

These are the questions that we will have to address, and we have not yet fully addressed them. I have no disagreement, whatsoever, on the policy on education, or creating a policy on education that reflects the society in the north. Although, it will be a complex type of policy because even in the Northwest Territories, there are different segments of society. Not just in the western Arctic and eastern Arctic, but also in the smaller regions such as Inuvialuit, Sahtu, South Slave and even in the eastern Arctic the different societies of Keewatin, North and South Baffin. So, the policy will have to reflect those societies' attitudes, determinations or objectives. That type of creation of policy, introduction of policy, or development of a policy, will require everyone's input into that. That is why the Department of Education is seeking advice and recommendation from different divisional boards, and the communities.

In terms of special needs, we recognize that we have been using the national average in determining the level of funding. When we had very selective community research work done on that, we immediately found out that the requirements for special needs is much higher than the national average, yet, under these financial restraints, it is very hard to address that. That will require action from the Legislative Assembly.

In terms of bussing, we know that is a problem, but when the bussing policy was introduced, and the criteria for funding in 1988 or 1989, the funding formula was not adequately addressed. We give approximately $1.5 million to divisional boards of the N.W.T. for bussing purposes, but they are still on an ad hoc or needy basis, and this area, too, will have to be reviewed. How we will be able to pay for it is another question. It is very hard to deal with that because bussing is also important, but it is not as critical as other areas of financial requirements of the school system.

In the area of the Teacher Education Program, I think we have been addressing that fairly quickly. We have been going more slowly on this, not so much because there is a lack of aboriginal peoples deciding to become teachers, rather, because there has been a lack of funding in that one. Although we have 25 percent aboriginal teachers now in the N.W.T., we are still committed very much to have 50 percent aboriginal teachers by the year 2000. Certainly, in the next three years that I am allowed to sit in the House, I will work very hard in achieving that, at least beyond 25 percent with a target of 50 percent by the year 2000. That would require a very, very strong decision on the part of the Legislative Assembly in financing it. Also, setting up a system, because not all the regions or divisional board regions, are the same in terms of their requirements. For example, in the eastern Arctic, it was not very hard, because they were already strong in their aboriginal languages. In certain areas, such as the Beaufort Delta, those potential teachers, or the potential students on top, might have lost some of their languages, and may require special training, or at least refreshment courses on their languages, if that is required. So, it will take an imaginative approach to developing a criteria, or system, into the Teacher Education Program.

In terms of the comprehensive strategy that Mr. Zoe is recommending, to form a partnership, or in terms of planning and implementation, to developing a regional workforce in certain areas, and create a labour market in the regions, I am thrilled by this. I would really like to give a welcome to individual groups. In fact, we had a meeting with the Gwich'in Tribal Council last night or yesterday afternoon, it was an intriguing discussion, and as long as we have tea and coffee, we will keep that hot, Mr. Chairman, because we are very much interested in that.

However, in terms of the Northern Leaders' Program that was introduced in the 11th Assembly, we have reviewed this request seriously, and we were very reluctant to remove it.

We have convinced the F.M.B. that there is a need for and, a very, very high demand for student financial assistance in the regular post-secondary or Arctic College. We have approximately, close to, 500 aboriginal post-secondary students and, 610 aboriginal students that we have to finance. The student financial assistance is for 580 non-aboriginal people, so I guess we are saying, is in the real terms, the Northern Leaders' Program is very expensive, and there is a waiting list for other student assistance requirements. We felt that we could enrol two on the student financial assistance for the price of one on the Northern Leaders' Program. So, we are averaging about $20,000 or $18,000 per student on the Student Financial Assistance Program. We tried our best, but under these times of financial restraint, we cannot really afford to have a high cost per student education program. That is why we have been reluctant, but have to take this very difficult decision, to eliminate the Northern Leaders' Program, and increase financial assistance for regular post- secondary students. So, we try to multiply the productivity in that area. There is no disagreement on Mr. Zoe's statements, however, can we afford it? That is the question. Can we afford it in the next two years? The very, very important question, why are there any budget cuts in education, when it is such a high priority? I ask that question too. I think everyone in the Arctic has asked that, but we have no more an exceptional department than anyone else, we are simply a part of a department that was asked to cut back to balance the budget, two years from now.

We abide by it, and we agree with it, in order to look at the bigger picture. We had to make some cuts. Mr. Chairman, I will stop now, because we could have this dialogue going, I have no disagreements with Mr. Zoe's statements. Thank you.

Thank you, I am sure you will survive the next three years, we will get to see the year 2000. Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister, you have a strategy in place? Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the Teacher Education Program for the Rae-Edzo area, yes, we are encouraged by the results of what has come out of the T.E.P. program, including C.T.E.P. We are currently reviewing it now as to the successes, or what we can improve. Was the quality good enough to call these teachers? Was there any complaints in terms of quality standards, since these C.T.E.P. students have been teaching, and in what area?

We are doing the review now. Our target is to get the report done, and our own recommendation as to where we will go from there is by December of this year.

We are not slowing down on funding those C.T.E.P. programs. We are not stopping anything. Anything that is going on, will go on. We are not going to say let us stop this for now, until we find out. We are not doing that. We are continuing the process, and reviewing at the same time.

In the area of the Northern Leaders' Program, I am having a very hard time at the exact directive that was given. Was it for land claims, or is it for those who needed extra financial assistance beyond student loans or grants, to become potential leaders? I did not find that anywhere. What it does to me, is to eliminate, or at least minimize, the potential hardship for these students, if they were on salary they would feel more comfortable. Under the present Student Financial Assistance Programs, the options are still completely open. They can still take post-secondary education under student financial assistance, even if they are potential leaders under the land claims, or under the economic development, or under the social programs, or aboriginal experts. The university courses which we fund the students under the student financial assistance, are still completely available.

The only difference is that the leadership program is much more expensive on a per capita basis, whereas, we could put more post-secondary students under student financial assistance.