Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Continue, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes the Standing Committee on Finance's report. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. General comments. Would the honourable Minister like to bring in his witnesses? Mr. Minister, for the record, would you introduce your witness please.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We are on page 10-7 of the capital estimates. General comments. Mr. Koe.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make some general comments in the area of environmental protection. Earlier this week, my colleague from the Kitikmeot, mentioned some of the contaminants under the sea, and the inability of the federal government and our government to determine what's there and whether they are contaminating the water.

I have other concerns in terms of a lot of the other issues from pulp mill effluents, that come down the rivers that feed into the Mackenzie and, subsequently, flow downstream into the Beaufort Sea. I know this department is responsible for the administration of the Environmental Protection Act and the Pesticides Act. I'm just wondering what kinds of things the department is doing in terms of enforcing and looking after the areas under the Environmental Protection Act.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Deputy Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will break my area into three main areas. First of all, on the Mackenzie River basin. We have been working with the other provinces that share the basin, BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, the Yukon and the federal government, to come up with a trans-boundary water agreement that will put some control on the kind of pollutants that end up in that water system. Those negotiations have been going on for basically 12 years now. We're reaching the point where the provinces are in agreement with us and I believe the federal government is onside.

We will have a trans-boundary water agreement in place, hopefully by late next spring. That agreement will be a basis of understanding on both water quality and water quantity in the Mackenzie. Of particular concern to us are the pollutants coming out of the pulp mills. In terms of ocean dumping and the contaminants in the ocean, all of the water in the ocean is under federal responsibility. We continue to monitor what is happening, and in January we will be receiving a report from the federal government on pollutants and other matter that is in the ocean that the federal government knows about.

Our role there is simply to monitor and pressure the government to do whatever we can, in terms of ensuring that material that is potentially harmful doesn't end up in the ocean. The position of our government and our department is basically, no ocean dumping. We don't feel it is necessary to dump anything untreated into the ocean. Last year, there was an issue of scrap metal and I think that issue clearly outlined our position.

The third area of responsibility has to do with Quebec Hydro's plan to build a large dam on the Great Whale River. Whenever water is dammed up like that there is a creation of some pollution that ends up in the waters. In this case, it would probably be mercury from flooded forests. We are working with Quebec Hydro and with the federal government to try to come to an agreement that there will be a thorough assessment done of the impact of that project on Sanikiluaq and the Belcher Islands, as well as the whole Hudson Bay, before it goes ahead.

Again, we're negotiating that one. We haven't come to any final terms in terms of how the assessment will be done or what the guidelines will be. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. Your response raises a whole slew of other questions. You mentioned Quebec Hydro, and on our back step there is tremendous hydro development

in the Snare Lake area. I'm just curious, what type of work are you doing before these developments take place, such as base studies before the hydro dam is put into place. One of the concerns is that we don't seem to have any baseline information so that once a project is developed or once a contamination occurs, we have something to measure the impact of that contamination. I'm just curious, what are you are doing as a department to investigate potential hydro developments in the Dogrib country?

Thank you. Mr. Minister. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, we have not done anything yet in terms of collecting baseline data, specifically for the proposed Snare River hydro dam. As this project gets close to reality, we will be collecting the baseline data that would be necessary.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

The same type of question goes for the water contamination and pollutants that flow into the Mackenzie River basin. I know when I was in the negotiating business, that was a major concern of people who were downstream from where the contamination seemingly occurs. Neither government, federal or territorial, could accurately say that this was there before and this is what is there today. All we know is that our fish species are being contaminated and, in some areas, water doesn't taste the same as it used to. People in the communities notice these things so they're concerned.

Scientifically, no one can say for certain this is what is happening. I'd just like to ask, again, what are you doing in that area at this time?

Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, the main activity we're participating in right now is what is called the northern rivers basin study which is a federally-funded study of northern rivers, primarily in Alberta, looking at all pollutants in the river but specifically at the pulp mill impact. We have a fair bit of information right now on dioxins and toxicants which have both come from the pulp mills or, possibly, from some flooding which happened.

We continue to monitor it and are doing some studies. We, of course, feel there could be more done. However, we're doing whatever we can within the resources we have. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How exactly is this monitoring done? Do you have equipment? What type of testing are you doing? How do you determine levels of contaminants and dioxins in water? Do you have a science lab somewhere or do you use federal labs, or whatever, in other places?

Thank you. Mr. Handley.

We're relying on the federal government, at this point, to provide the equipment and to do most of the analysis themselves, although our people do participate at times. They have the equipment. Also, the pulp mills have some equipment and do a fair bit of testing themselves, in terms of the pollutants from their specific operation. We don't have that kind of equipment ourselves.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe.

I find that interesting because, obviously, the pulp mills are going to be a bit biased on the type of information they release and, in some cases, I would assume the federal government too because of the amounts of subsidies they may put into some of these businesses to keep them going.

The reason for my line of questioning, Mr. Chairman, is that there is $25,000 going to be allocated for, I assume, safety. It says tools and equipment but, in your mandate, the division requires safety and other technical equipment. I'm just curious, how much safety and technical equipment can we buy for $25,000? When I was younger, I worked for Fisheries and Oceans and I know the types of equipment they need to analyze dioxins and toxicants in water and air are in the millions of dollars, so $25,000 is not very much. We're responsible, as a government, for these areas. I would have assumed there would be more allocations for technical equipment to be bought.