I have no comment. I think the advice is good.

General comments. Mr. Gargan.

With regard to labs, we have Renewable Resources labs in Fort Providence mainly for testing bison. Providence is an area where you really should have some kind of lab to test water quality, to indicate, for the rest of the communities down the river whether the water is safe. That

has been agreed. I realize that Providence would be the first one hit if contaminants were to be detected. I would hope that in your long-term plans it will be planned for. It is not good enough to have the federal government testing.

You say you monitor, but how much monitoring do you do? I just don't know how you can have a person there 100 per cent of the time watching the testing, but not really knowing how the results of those tests are determined. If we do have a person who knows how to determine the results of those tests then we should keep that person up here to do our own monitoring on water quality.

Again, this is a concern. I think Fred mentioned deformed fish. I mentioned that too. We also see a lot of dead fish in the river. I can't answer for the fish, but I know that something is definitely wrong because those fish cannot just up and die without answers. That concern will be expressed every year, I suppose, and it is going to start being expressed increasingly by other Members along the river I am sure.

I did hear on the 8:30 news yesterday, about these fish being caught in Fort Good Hope, too. Their feeling is that it is from the oil field. People are raising concerns. In order for us to get some confident answers, we cannot keep relying on other research labs to do our tests for us. I think we should hire our own people and start doing it ourselves and ensure the levels that are determined are the actual levels.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

The other thing, too, because of the great resource we have, the reserve requested the department to see whether they might be able to use Swot Lake for cultural programs. I don't think the department has supported that. Swot Lake is used sometimes in the summer, but it is not used all the time. In the last several years it hasn't been used and even if it is used it is in a very limited way.

Swot Lake was first established to look at fires around that area. Now there is less fire in our area, but we have about eight buildings that aren't used. We hope that you would look at having those facilities used, if not for cultural programs then at least open it during the winter months so that other organizations can use it. Even schools in Hay River, for example, should be able to have trips out there.

Thank you. Mr. Deputy Minister.

Mr. Chairman, Swot Lake is what we call a satellite base. It's a camp we build for use by fire crews when there's a fire in that area. The amount of use, of course, as Mr. Gargan said, depends on the number of fires or the chances of fires in that area. We would be certainly willing to make that facility available for groups of students, for example, who want to go out there, provided it was available if our fire crew needed it. We would require first call on it.

I had a meeting with the deputy ministers of Education and Social Services recently, and we're looking at those kinds of options to jointly develop plans for camps to get young people out into the bush.

Qujannamiik. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, last year, or this fire season, the department has gone way over budget with regard to expenditures. One of the things fire tower operators in my own constituency noted, where there was a limited amount of fire, was a number of choppers that are flying around even though they have fire towers there. I think we really have to look at the establishment of more fire towers and fewer choppers. It's a lot easier on your own if you have fire towers, as opposed to choppers flying 16 hours a day to spot fires. I know fire tower operators are always saying to me, "What are those choppers doing? I'm already doing the job." But they still have choppers flying in their vicinity.

I know the Nahendeh Member isn't here, but last year Renewable Resources met in Fort Simpson and I was there for that meeting too. One of the requests they made, as part of their plans, was to look at fire towers being established in Wrigley, Sibbeston Hill, Redknife Hill and the Horn Mountains. Those are different areas in which you might want to establish fire towers so you cut down on the amount...I'm certainly not trying to take away from the helicopter companies, but it seems to me that for the amount of costs we incurred this year, one of the things to consider is how you can most effectively deliver the programs in a given season without going overboard. At least with fire towers, you know. They operate from May to October, and you know how much it will cost to pay the person to stay there and the amount of chopper services they require every other week. I think those can be determined. But you can't determine how many flying hours a chopper will work. Because of that you run into quite a large expenditure.

Thank you. Once Mr. Gargan is finished with his general comments, we will take a short break. Mr. Gargan, do you have more questions? Okay? Thank you. We will take a break.

---SHORT RECESS

Thank you. The committee will now come to order. Before the short break, we were on general comments. I had Mr. Pudlat and then Mr. Antoine. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You had mentioned earlier that you would be working closely with the Quebec hydro project. I was happy to hear this, but I have a comment to make. One of the communities I represent is Sanikiluaq, and Sanikiluaq is pretty close to the communities that are going to be affected by the hydro project. I cannot tell you exactly what the location of the land is that I am concerned about it. I haven't seen it yet.

There has been some damage done to the land that I am referring to, however. When I visited the community of Sanikiluaq, some projects had gone ahead with regard to the hydro project. After these projects proceeded, geese were no longer landing in the area where they used to land in Sanikiluaq. Some geese have been found nearby that are dying because of the pollution from Great Whale River.

The people of the north depend very much on northern country food. They hunt northern wildlife. As the project proceeds I think there are going to be more communities and camps established near the hydro project. I understand that Great Whale River residents have been asked questions with regard to the hydro project. There were some studies done but Sanikiluaq was not included in these studies. There were questions that Sanikiluaq residents would have had many answers for the project topics.

If the hydro project in Great Whale River goes ahead and they establish tailings sites, I will be concerned about the wildlife habitat. I am afraid they will be exposed to contaminants. I understand this is being looked into. There is a feasibility study being done with regard to this. I am going to request that with the environmental studies that are being done, we are kept informed with regard to what is happening because I am very concerned about the project, the wildlife and our environment. Hopefully, the Minister understood my question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. As the Minister indicated earlier, he wants the deputy minister to respond to questions unless Members specifically request the Minister to answer the question. In that case, the Minister will endeavour to answer the question. If the Minister wishes to respond to the question, I'll leave it to his discretion. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. I have Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My general comments to the Department of Renewable Resources are with regard to one part of the mandate of the department. Like many Members who spoke, my concern is the environmental protection measures. In my constituency we have two rivers joining. One is the Deh Cho, and a lot of the water comes from the provinces of Alberta and BC. The other one is the Liard River which comes in from BC. My constituents have been telling me for the last few years that the water quality is getting worse. The fish quality is also getting bad. An example is, last summer one of the elders who has a fish net out of Simpson showed me some fish that were in very bad shape. The fish we call suckers had big sores on them. Their fins were all worn right down. Pickerel had sores on them and the white fish as well. He was telling me that it's been like that most of the summer.

We gave about four or five different species of fish to a renewable resource officer to see what the problem was. They took them and we haven't heard what happened to these fish. My concern is that the people we represent in here bring these issues to us, and we bring them to the Department of Renewable Resources because there is no other place in the north where we can take animals and fish off the land to get them tested. We don't have the resources ourselves.

This is the only department in the north that has a mandate to provide environmental protection measures. One of the goals is that the quality of the environment is protected and enhanced. Based on these departmental mandates and goals, I would like to know what I can do. Is there a process or system in place so that whenever a constituency has concern about the quality of fish and animals I could take it to this department. I would like to be assured that tests are done on these animals and that the results of the tests are made known

to me, or to the people who are concerned. I would like to know if there is a system in place for us.

I heard from the honourable Members in this House today that there is a great deal of concern about the environment. We are all aware that the animals that we've known to be on the land and in the water...their conditions are deteriorating. There is nothing we can do to stop it, but at least what we can do is try to identify what the problem is. In a very speedy manner, it would be good to do that. I would just like to hear from the department, a satisfactory reply to my concerns. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. The last comments made by Mr. Pudlat and Mr. Antoine are dealing with capital estimates because we are talking about capital testing equipment, so I will allow the Minister to respond to the question. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Antoine.

My other concern was...maybe I could rephrase it. Does the department have equipment, a lab, or some place of a capital nature for whenever there are samples like fish, for example, to be tested to see what is causing them to be in the poor shape they are? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, the department has labs for dealing with mammals, like foxes, caribou and so on, but we don't have facilities or specialists to deal with fish. As I said before, that's a federal responsibility right now. When you give us samples like this we would have to take them to the federal government and they would do the more thorough analysis of it.