Mr. Chairman, for the ten years that I have been a Member now, I think Fort Providence was one of the first communities to get a large arena. But, as part of that, they were required to contribute $250,000 up front before the capital. I was wondering if that is the practice right now in all communities, that, in order for those capital allocations to be designated to those communities, those communities have to come up with money up front, before the allocation will be approved.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Right. I understand Mr. Gargan's question more clearly now. In the time with Fort Providence, I believe that communities did contribute a significant amount of money to their arena. As Mr. Gargan said, some were close to $250,000, I believe.

Under the Community Assistance Policy, we are taking a more flexible approach. Not all communities have the ability to raise capital as their contribution to an arena. As I said earlier, we have taken a much more flexible approach to it, where sweat equity is one area where we can quantify the cost of that.

For example, in the area of Whale Cove, in my riding, the community provided the foundation for the arena there. I think there is clearly an indication here, that we are trying to be as flexible as possible so as to allow the communities to find their way of identifying their fiscal contribution. It is not necessarily always in a form of cash. It may appear, on the surface, being somewhat unfair to a community like Fort Providence to contribute significant sums of cash, but the delivery of a gravel pad, volunteer labour or other areas is another way of demonstrating their fiscal commitment to an arena project, a community hall or curling rink.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Under the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, there is also an allocation under that program for gravel and granular material, so the community could use that same amount of money that was used to stockpile that gravel and divert it so that it is used for arenas. Is that what you're suggesting?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

No, I am not suggesting that the money expended on gravel, and is paid for throughout some other means, is then diverted to arenas. What I am saying is, I am just using that as an example. I am saying that we have to find, and we are finding, a flexible approach to communities' contributions because not all communities have the ability to generate cash. The average cost of an arena, if we can use that for an example, I am told, is somewhere in the region of roughly $1.2 million or $1.3 million, whether you are in Whale Cove or Pelly Bay. The net contribution the community has to come up with is five per cent. There is a formula here. I understand it says, the first $100,000, they have to come up with 15 per cent, the next $900,000, they have to come up with five per cent, et cetera. In a typical situation, you could be looking at somewhere in the region of $55,000 or $65,000 if you were going to do a $1 million arena. Where a community doesn't have the capacity to put up the cash, it could put it up through other means. That is what I am trying to say.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Again, for example, in 1991-92 there was an arena built in Fort Norman. If you look at all the budgets, there are no recoveries for Fort Norman. Why is that?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

I don't have that answer for you at my fingertips, Mr. Gargan, at this time, for 1991-92. I can get it for you, but I don't have it today. I'm sorry.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

All I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, is that it doesn't show up in 1992-93, 1993-94, 1994-95. I'm just saying that when you look at these books, Mr. Chairman, and with regard to the recoveries whether it's in cash or not, at least there should be something there to say what the projects were worth. If it's sweat equity, it's sweat equity to how much? If it's not in there, then it doesn't seem fair that other communities that are more ambitious, are raising money and making their fair share of contributions through cash. It seems unfair that it doesn't show up. I think there are two standards, that's what I'm trying to point out to you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

I want to assure the honourable Member, there are not two standards. There are some communities that have a greater ability to generate cash and other communities have done it through a variety of other ways, whether it's sweat equity, or finding some of their private sector to donate gravel or whatever. I've got the notes here, but I stand to be corrected. However, it appears, for the Fort Norman situation, it looks like there may have been $235,000 recoveries in the detail by settlement, capital plan and perhaps it isn't in here. I will commit to the honourable Member to determine what the contribution was in some of these arenas and get back to him. I don't have it here, but it appears in our internal documents, that there's a $235,000 recovery, in Fort Norman.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, the other thing that perhaps the Minister should look at is, in places where the ability isn't there for them to raise their percentage, you really have to look at whether or not the communities can afford to maintain these facilities that are going into these communities. I also request, Mr. Chairman, that perhaps the Minister may be able to provide me with copies -- to all the Members for that matter -- of the community centres, community arenas, community curling rinks, population, and the recoveries since 1983.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

First of all, let me state very clearly, whether I'm the Minister or not the Minister of MACA, I'm a strong advocate of, and will continue to be a strong advocate of, the development of arenas in these small communities. I know, in my experience, that they've...I don't know who initiated this program a few years back, but it is probably one of the most successful programs we've had, with respect to providing facilities for our children to operate and play out of. We are taking, and have to take, a flexible approach to people's contribution to these arena facilities. Not all communities have the capacity to generate cash. Some communities are sitting at 60 and 70 per cent unemployment and we have to find another way to do that. That's what this approach is all about.

I do recognize Mr. Gargan's point and that is, in his home community, there was a tremendous and commendable effort in putting large sums of money together to put his arena in place. I was in that arena and community hall and it's a wonderful building. I will, if given some time, provide Mr. Gargan with the information that he's requested. It was back to 1983, I believe. Correct? I do want to stress that, in 1993, this is the approach of the department; it's a flexible approach to the contribution to ensure that this community arena program, which was initiated before my time comes forward into completion. It's my understanding that we're close to that now. Almost every community in the Arctic now has one, I believe. Mr. Menard tells me that's so. I will be only too happy to provide the honourable Member with the all the information he's requested. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

One final comment, Mr. Chairman, and that's with regard to, again, an allocation that was made to Fort Providence for a curling rink. Do you know what the status is on that? I know that I've been consulting with the hamlet members but they don't seem to have any answers as to how they're going to use that money. How many options do they have? Is it designated specifically for recreation, for a two-sheet curling rink in addition to the arena or do the hamlets have some flexibility so that they determine whether it's going to be a bowling alley or something else?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

I have to be a bit candid here. I'm not a particular advocate of arenas at this time. It seems to me it's a luxury and the money perhaps should be put to better use. However, that's just my personal opinion, it's not municipal policy. I meant curling rinks, sorry, did I say arenas? I meant curling rinks. Maybe it's just because my kids play hockey, I don't know. Anyway, the reality is that there is money allocated in the budget for 1996, 1997, and 1998. It's my understanding from Mr. Christensen here that there are ongoing discussions currently under way with the municipality to determine, in fact, if they want a curling rink or, as you've suggested, maybe some other use for those capital dollars. That decision will be made by the department in consultation with the municipality and certainly with the Member representing that area. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Antoine.