Mr. Chairman, I have one question with regard to a particular development of houses that I don't think I've ever asked the Minister about, although I've dealt with him on the issue for clarification for my constituents. Many of the houses in our area that are proposed to be built automatically include crawl spaces and not basements, unless the client decides they want one. I believe this issue, if I recall, was addressed by the Minister when he was a Member that it should be a given that when houses are built, basements should also be considered because of the soil in our area. Currently the budget doesn't allow for that but I know we tried to address it by ensuring that clients who want basements can be given basements and they pay the difference of the screwjacks, from the crawlspace. Therefore, they can build basements and the difference has to be absorbed by the client. I was going to suggest to the Minister that since a certain amount of units are allotted to the community, could they not, within those units, calculate the cost of basements so clients would not have to take out another loan or mortgage to be able to absorb that cost for the difference of the basement that they need? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we first started getting cut by CMHC on our construction budgets last fall, I came forward to Members. We used to have approximately 18 different designs, I believe it was, for HAP. When we changed it to the access program we gave the basic designs, a two-bedroom, a three-bedroom, a four-bedroom or whatever. They're all designed basically the same except that the roof lines are a little bit different for the High Arctic, compared to the treeline. It was all due to cost, to try to save money.

If clients want basements, I don't know what the cost difference is, but like the Member says, they can subtract. If a basement costs $10,000, for example, and the screwjacks and the gravel pads and the crawlspace costs $9,000, then the client has to pick up the other $1,000. We usually assist them with that in that area. They have to pay it because no other client would get it in any other area. I don't know how else to give out the housing fairly. Thank you.

Thank you. Total activity. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, I understand what the Minister is saying but the problem is that when you look at the gravel pads and the costs of screwjacks and the costs of the crawlspace you're looking at approximately, I believe it's, $4,500. Then you're looking at the cost to build a basement of $8,500. Basically, what I'm saying is that the housing design is not compatible to the community development. No houses in Fort Smith are built on what you would call those blocks and have crawlspaces because we have the soil where we can build basements very easily. Therefore, if, for example, 12 units are allocated to Fort Smith and a certain amount of funds are to be allocated, then why aren't those funds included? If it's deemed that those funds can only afford 11 units, as opposed to 12, then 11 units should be considered to ensure that they're building proper houses. The problem you are having now is that you have clients that have to come up with an extra $3,000 in a very short time and they just don't have the funds. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister for housing.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The standards for houses, everything is based on a standard. If you have two kids you're going to get so many bedrooms, and so on. If you have three, you'll get more bedrooms. We allocate units under the condition that we meet so many needs in that community. We're stacked up on needs in every community, we have 3,600 units less than we need right now. Then it wouldn't be fair to those people that are waiting; one person would still be waiting until the next year or the next year. If you have an allocation to build ten units, then we should be build ten units with that money.

Also, we give the clients in the Fort Smith, South Slave area preference, or options. That client, if they're going to get a three-bedroom unit they can switch that to a two-bedroom unit with a full basement and put one-bedroom into the basement. Then they don't have to pay anything. If they continue to keep the three-bedroom that would meet their need and the basement is extra, above their need, they would then pay the extra. Thank you.

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm trying to find a way to address these concerns so that I don't have these clients that have these units allocated to them coming to me to indicate that it's difficult to build their houses because of inadequate funding. That's not the intention of the housing corporation, the intention is to try to provide housing so they can build these houses and are able to address their housing needs.

If the Minister is not willing to look at changing the funding for the number of units to allow these basements, then I have to stress the point that the standards of your corporation are not compatible with how the community builds houses. I would like to know if there is some way we can deal with those standards. When the Minister was a Member, I recall him vividly bringing the same concern I am bringing up. With the new houses that you are now building, you are going back to the standards that were developed way back in the 1960s with these types of gravel pads and crawl spaces. In the South Slave, they don't need those types of houses. Would the Minister be willing to review the standards, keeping in mind the ability of the Housing Corporation to allow for basements to be built? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will review all construction standards with the Advisory Committee on

Housing.

Thank you. Total activity, $32 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. On pages 03-13 to 03-16 of this particular section are the information items. If Members of the committee have any questions they would like to direct the Minister, now is the time to do it. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

I have one comment with regard to the funding for housing. We have all recognized that we have had significant cuts to our housing budget from the federal government. I believe all Members appreciate the Minister's effort in trying to get the federal government to reconsider the funds that they have cut from the budget. As a result, we have not been able to build as many houses as we probably could have if we got funding from the federal government. I believe that it is critical the Minister vigilantly continue to make every effort to obtain these types of funds because I strongly believe, and I am sure many other Members do, that their fiduciary responsibility is to provide housing to aboriginal people. With that, I believe that this point has to be stressed to the federal government that we cannot afford, as a government, to build as many houses as the needs survey showed. That we will be crippled in being able to deliver these houses, which are very important for the people of the north. There is no way we can be compared to other jurisdictions when it comes to cost and the amount of houses that are being built. I want to make that comment because I feel it is critical and I think the federal government is making every attempt to get away from their financial responsibilities. They have to be reminded that they have a fiduciary responsibility to aboriginal people. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Members for their support. I will assure them that we will continue to lobby as hard as we can on this issue and make sure that the federal government understands their responsibilities. Thank you.

The first information item is the department summary. The second information item is district operations. The third information item, on page 03-15, is notes to detail of capital. On page 03-16, the fourth information item, is notes to detail of capital. If there are no questions, we will go back to page 03-9, department summary, capital expenditures, total capital expenditures is $32 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Does the committee agree that this department is concluded?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. I would like to thank Minister Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank my witnesses for their help. I would like to thank Larry Elkin for helping me prepare this budget. Thank you.

I would like to thank the Minister and witnesses for appearing before this committee. All right. Does the committee agree that details for Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1994-95, is concluded with the conclusion of this particular department?