Thank you. Keewatin, total region, $10,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Kitikmeot, total region, $70,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Thank you very much. Total buildings and works, $4.348 million. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I'm about to raise I understand is an operations and maintenance issue and I know we're in capital, but just as the Standing Committee on Finance in its report acknowledged that these things are interrelated and should be raised now, I do want to raise this issue in committee of the whole.

The issue I'm concerned about, Mr. Chairman, has to do with the allocation of base funding in the Arctic College when the new colleges are established in the new year. I'd like to be specific and give some examples. I'm concerned that there's no nursing program in Nunavut. I'm concerned that there's no native studies program in Nunavut. And I'm very concerned about trades training. I understand that there is now only one location designated for trades training of apprentices in the Northwest Territories and that's at Thebacha Campus. There is a base, I understand, of some $1.1 million and eight permanent person years. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that some of those person years and some of that base funding have been dedicated to students from Nunavut. There is obviously going to be a desire, as we move towards Nunavut and as we establish a Nunavut Arctic College, to have trades training take place closer to home in the three Nunavut regions.

I'll give one other example, Mr. Chairman. There are two environmental technology and renewable resource programs now in place in the college, one is located at Thebacha Campus and one at Nunatta Campus. It seems, however, on the face of it, that there are disparities and inequities in the funding. The RRTP program at Thebacha has a budget, I understand, of some $400,000 and five person years, yet a comparable program at Nunatta Campus has a budget of only $300,000 and three person years.

I guess I'd like to ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman, how the department is going to handle the allocation of the existing base funding when the new colleges are established. I would like to make it clear that I'm just concerned about equity and fairness, nothing more. I think there should be some way of making a fair division of the existing O and M resources. Thank you.

Mr. Minister, although the issue is dealing with O and M, I'll allow the question. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm concerned about equity, too. That's why I raised the whole matter of some base resources that are required for Kitikmeot. I think that that's fundamental because we cannot consider delivering a base of resources if we don't look at the situation, particularly if they don't have the facilities in place to deliver programs in the region.

As I pointed out earlier to the honourable Member, I think the way the formula has now allowed us to work these things out will be much more equitable.

I understand the concern that has been raised, but I think we have to realize that our experiences, first, in any new program, as the one that the honourable Member pointed to which is nursing, needs to allow us to at least gain some experience in the delivery of that program. I do understand the need for us maybe to evaluate whether we have to consider expanding it. But I think our short-term experience, as was the case for the teacher education program, will only teach us an ability to deliver better.

I also understand the point that was raised about the technology program, driver education or heavy equipment operator programs. But I think it's a matter of how we...We have to ask ourselves a question as to how it is that we can collectively deliver those programs. Once we do that, then I think...For instance, there have been some programs that have been delivered in Nunatta that have not been delivered in Thebacha or any of the western campuses, it's been the total responsibility of Nunatta. In some cases that may not happen. It's unfortunate, Mr. Chairman, that I didn't have a chance to get the kind of advice that Mr. Wilman gave Mr. Patterson because I think the best situation would have been to allow the Nunavut Arctic College board to try to address these particular matters and resolve it between the total board component.

I think the application of the new formula, developing the plan of action, and then determining the investment that's necessary for these programs would better resolve the concern the honourable Member has raised, because I think that's the only way we can all resolve it. In some cases, aboriginal organizations are spending their own money to have some of these programs delivered, as a result of claim agreements.

Thank you. Total buildings and works, capital estimates. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I happen to be from one riding in Nunavut, but I hope the Minister understands that my questions were directed about the Nunavut Arctic College and all its campuses including the Kitikmeot and the Keewatin.

Mr. Chairman, I understand the Minister's response to be that there's a corporate plan being developed and that there is a formula for the allocation of funding that is in place. I guess what I'm curious to know is when we come back here in February, will the new funding allocation formula be reflected in the O and M budget. My understanding is that the corporate plans are not concluded yet. So I agree that there should be long-term plans and that maybe, hopefully, we will continue to share programs into the long-term future. But I would like to know what's going to happen April 1, 1995. Will there be some adjustments if inequities have been identified through the new allocation formula? Will this result in some changes? I don't pretend to understand or recommend on what will be equitable, I've just cited some examples. The Minister mentioned a few more -- heavy equipment is another one. But I'm just wondering, will we start to see the results of this new formula in the new O and M budget. Thank you.

Thank you. Again, we are dealing with the capital estimates. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. No, what you're going to see initially is the whole issue of the split decision, because that's all we can deal with at this particular juncture. What we then have to move to is dealing with campuses, and then dealing with equity. Those are the three components to what we're trying to do.

Qujannamiik. Thank you. Total buildings and works. Mr. Patterson.

So, Mr. Chairman, is the Minister telling me that, even though we've set up new headquarters facilities for the new colleges with administrations that are now up and running, that the Nunavut Arctic College will simply inherit all of the existing programs and funding that are located in

Nunavut, without any change? I have a concern about whether that is fair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. The honourable Member knows that even when we created boards of education, it didn't mean equity in the system existed. What we needed to do was split the various institutions and resources they had. Once that happened, we then dealt with general, basic services and then with the equity issue. I think that's the fairest way of approaching it. First of all, you haven't even approved the splitting of the college. We hadn't done that. So, in that sense, we haven't got to that point.

But, I can assure the honourable Member that one component that was also dealt with was the funding formula. I indicated to you that I would come back with a formula. It is now in place. It is going to be used in the future by Arctic College and, as we move along, I believe we'll be able to deal with the issue of appropriately resourcing the programs which are going to be in place, both in Nunavut and in the western territory.

One other component that shouldn't be overlooked is the idea of one college assuming a specific responsibility. Not all programs have to be in both places. One college can assume a responsibility in one area to ensure appropriate financial expenditures.

Qujannamiik. Total buildings and works. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I know this department is good at doing long-range planning. I would like to ask the Minister, assuming the Arctic College passes in this session -- and I know it is presumptuous to assume anything at this point -- what is the department's plan to implement the two new college administrations? What is the target date? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Education.

Thank you. What we need to do is first split the budgets, the way they are right now, then look at the issue of base services, deal with that, and hopefully soon after, deal with the equity issue. That all requires investment decisions, which is not part of the resourcing we can review in this budget.

Qujannamiik. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I'm very interested in the Minister's response. I guess I would like to respectfully suggest to him, isn't the best time to look at the equity issue when you're looking at the budgets? If you split the budgets first and look at the equity issue later, you have to claw back resources that may not be appropriately divided. As you pointed out, there may be a program in Nunatta that should also be offered in another location.

I would suggest that the logical time to deal with the equity issue is before you split the budgets, so the budgets are established on a fair basis. Rather than split them, assume there is an equitable allocation now and then try to fix it up

later when you have two colleges up and running. That would seem to be a much more difficult task. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Education.

I don't know how to answer the question because the honourable Member knows you can't divide it that way. It doesn't work like that. With great respect, it doesn't work that way. What you need is a plan of action, and we are trying to advise you about what the plan of action is.