Agreed.

---Agreed Tabled Document 4-12(7): New Rent Scale For Social Housing, November 1994

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not have prepared opening comments. I had given a Minister's statement in the House yesterday as basically my opening comments for this item, the new rent scale for social housing. We've worked on this document now for the past two and a half years, I believe. I did table this document in the House last spring. Since tabling this document in the House last spring -- the new rent scale for social housing -- we have gone out to every region and consulted with the regional people on the rent scale. The regional people and leaders have come up with recommendations that have changed this document. They came up with some very good recommendations. The rent scale has also gone back to the Advisory Committee on Social Housing with the recommendations from the regional consultation meetings. The advisory committee made recommendations to me to take to Cabinet. I did take these recommendations to Cabinet. All the recommendations from the advisory committee were accepted by Cabinet and given approval with exception to where Members of the advisory committee wanted to include students as part of the people who have free rent. We have to develop this social housing rent scale to co-exist with other things this government is doing. I was advised that Arctic College does supply a certain amount of money for students to pay their rent. It would be the same as Arctic College would charge.

Just one, Mr. Chairman, and that's with regard to the exemption. The exemption is pretty well the same with the exception of students, right? That's the only difference?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is correct.

When do we expect this exemption to start?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will implement everything starting April 1, 1995. Thank you.

Agreed.

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Mr. Chairman, I may be a little late, but I would like to ask the Minister more of a general question and that is, does this paper depart from the recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Social Housing in any way?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like I previously told Members in my opening remarks, it does depart in two places from the recommendations of the advisory committee. Firstly, students. The advisory committee recommended that students be exempt from rents. We couldn't do that because it had to tie in with the same benefits that all Arctic College students get, so they would be charged equivalent rents to what Arctic College students pay now. Both Arctic College and the Housing Corporation are basically doing the same thing and, still, they get very low, low rents.

As long as they are working towards home ownership with us, or show us they are doing that, then their rents would increase the same as everybody else. But, we want to see them working towards home ownership. There are approximately 250 very high income people throughout the Northwest Territories. That is a change from what the committee recommended, and came through the regional consultation process. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I should apologize to the committee for not having heard the Minister's opening remarks. Mr. Chairman, I would like to further ask the Minister, I believe this has been approved by Cabinet and, therefore, I would like to ask whether there was an assessment done of the costs of the revisions compared to the new revenues that will be generated. Can we have an idea from the Minister about what this going to cost and what it will yield? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The total cost of implementing this over four years is approximately $9 million, to us as a government. $2.2 million of that will be ongoing because of the exemptions. The phase-in period is what costs us dollars. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the new rent scale will produce more rent revenue. Can the Minister also describe how the corporation's rental revenues will be affected? He's outlined the costs, but is there a projection of how the rental revenues will affect the corporation's revenues? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, approximately 475 rents will go up, up to $100; 406 between $101 and $250; 493 between $251 and $500; 466 between $501 and $1,000; and, 197 over $1,000. Thank you.

Agreed.

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On page 13, item 4, the Minister says there is going to be an aggressive information campaign launched to get the information out to tenants. Is that going to be done by the housing authorities, Housing Corporation staff, or through a combination of the two?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That would be done by the housing authority, in conjunction with the NWT Housing Corporation. Every client in every community in every riding will be consulted and will be told of the changes. It will be a house-to-house campaign. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister, then, if the local housing authorities will be undertaking this information campaign, are they going to be provided any additional resources to handle this work? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we will be working very closely with the housing authorities to get this thing done. We know it will cost some extra money in some areas. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the same topic, if you recognize that it is going to cost additional dollars in some areas, how have you identified those extra needs? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The corporation will review and respond to the specific needs of each community with LHA board and staff over the next several months. Where required, this will include the addition of temporary staff for the local housing authority. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the 30 per cent, 30 per cent, 30 per cent, and 10 per cent, that is 100 per cent of the rent, based on 30 per cent, right?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No rent will exceed 30 per cent of the gross income. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is going to have to be a lot of resources put into tenant counselling and the like. I think this has been acknowledged in the Minister's paper. I would like to ask, have there been specific funds allocated to meet the additional implementation requirements at the local level? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I have the Member repeat his question, please? I didn't hear it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The implementation process that Mr. Ng was asking about will require more intensive effort, at least in the first phase. I would like to ask the Minister, in the implementation cost he outlined four years and $9 million. Have specific funds been budgeted for the increased resources required at the community level? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, not at this time but we will do that. On page 14 of 16, item 6, it spells it out. We are committed to that and we fully understand the regional consultation process. We heard it many times in a lot of the regions that the local housing authorities are going to have to have assistance to implement the new rental scale program. We fully agree with them and we will work them to ensure that they do have that assistance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that commitment. I would like to remind the Minister that some of the larger communities have got capped staff allocations. I understand that Iqaluit, with 350 households to administer, was capped at the same allocation as communities with much fewer households to manage. I just want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that to do the job in Iqaluit, for sure, and perhaps other communities with larger households, is going to require an increase to the basic staff, even if it's a temporary one because they cannot do their ongoing work and do tenant counselling and tenant information at the same time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A separate issue, capped staff. We will deal with this. That must be a separate issue. If communities feel that they do not have proper staff today, for what they're doing today, that's a separate issue. I don't know which communities are capped. All communities are given their allocation of staff according to the number of units they have to maintain and operate. That's my understanding of it. That would be a separate issue. Thank you.

I don't want to prolong this, Mr. Chairman, but my understanding from the Iqaluit housing authority is that there is a formula per household, but there's a ceiling on the number of households. Beyond that, your staff doesn't increase. I think it's 250. So they're capped staff-wise at the same level as a community administering 250 houses and they've got 350. I agree that it's a separate issue but I'm just telling the Minister that especially in Iqaluit, doing the implementation is going to require additional resources. In my view, they're already understaffed for the day-to-day working requirements. I'll just note that as a comment Mr. Chairman. I'm sure it will be taken into account as we move forward. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As it says on number six, page 14 of 16, the corporation will review and respond to specific needs of each community, including Iqaluit, with the local housing authority's board and staff over the next several months. Where required, this will include the addition of temporary staff at the local housing authority. We will treat Iqaluit fairly and equitably the same as we do the rest. We will work out the needs with them and figure out the best way to approach this. We will make sure that our clients fully understand what's happening, that full consultation is happening. We will also ensure that clients are fully aware of all the programs for home ownership that the Housing Corporation has to offer and they're properly consulted so that they can get into home ownership. Thank you.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Mr. Chairman, I'm impressed with the home ownership programs that are available and outlined in the second bullet on page 15. I wonder if the Minister has had a chance to consider the problem of land availability? I believe it's well known that in some communities there is a shortage of land for development. Even if people are eligible for the programs, they may not have land on which to build. I would like to ask the Minister whether this problem of land assembly is part of the implementation plan for those communities that have land pressures? I realize it may require working with another department but I wonder if the corporation has a strategy to make sure land is available once people decide to make the plunge to home ownership? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have instructed the president of the Housing Corporation, Mr. Al Menard, to work closely with MACA, and he does have some knowledge and experience with the land problems. We acknowledge the concern the Member for Iqaluit has raised, that there is an issue with land. We will work with MACA to address that issue in that community, the same as the rest where we do have problems with land. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Further to what my colleague, Mr. Patterson, was asking respecting land issues with the municipalities, I would like to ask the Minister a question. The Housing Corporation currently -- at least in my constituency -- has a lot of unused Housing Corporation lots where previously public housing units or northern rental units which had been written off, or had been demolished, or removed from those lots. It seems like the corporation is hoarding those lots and not giving them up for people applying under ACCESS programs or other individuals applying for land to build private houses. What it's done is created a strain on the land development areas in communities where there is a lot of development. I use Cambridge Bay for an example now because there are a lot of private homes going into that community. The Housing Corporation is applying on lots in the new development area instead of using the existing lots of which they already have title to. I would like to ask the Minister if he's aware of this issue and if he'll address it? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm aware of the issue now that the Member has brought the issue to the floor. I will make moves to address it. I will direct the Housing Corporation to sell those lots. If we don't need them, sell them. It's as simple as that. It makes common sense to sell them and let home ownership clients develop those lots because we do not have the money to build public housing any longer at this time. We might as well sell those lots. I'll direct the president of the Housing Corporation to sell them to your constituents at a fair market value. Thank you.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Just one other question, Mr. Chairman. Do we have a rebate system in here? A rebate system for the western Arctic, a credit, or whatever it's called, because of the amount of rent they were paying?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some social housing tenants in home ownership communities, as identified in the current rent scale, have been paying high rents for a number of years than tenants in non-home ownership communities. In recognition of this, some tenants in home ownership communities will be given a rebate or credit against their future rent payments or arrears of 10 per cent of the previous year's rent paid. This rebate/credit will only be applied during the period of phase-in of the rent scale increases and will be implemented only once a year. That is what the committee recommended and it's found on page 10 of 16. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. Again, just looking at the community and districts of the houses, it would look like something like...In Fort Providence, where they have people paying up to $1,000 -- there will be 10 paying $1,000 and one paying over that amount -- we can anticipate that during the next four years, Providence should be looking at about 11 units going to that area. Is that right?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Next summer or fall, there will be a new housing needs survey conducted in all the communities. A 1995 housing needs survey. Then the allocations will be given out, according to the survey, in a fair and equitable manner. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, in the recommendations it says they will encourage all the higher income people to move out within the next two years. When I look at the scale that was done by your department and it says out of 98 households, 45 of them will see a decrease, 23 of them won't see a change and 30 of them will see an increase. The breakdown of increases is: we have six people paying up to $100; seven people will be paying up to $250; six people will be paying up to $500; 10 people will be paying up to $1,000; and, one person will be paying over $1,000. So I would anticipate that if he is to encourage those people to move out of those houses, that would be the category; the people who are paying up to $1,000 and over. Based on that, Providence would probably need to get about five and five each year to get those people moved out. That is what I was looking at.

I am not referring to the needs assessment that is going to be done. If there is going to be a needs assessment, it will be for next year's allocation, so I don't see what that has to do with this. I am just asking, based on the recommendations, how we hope to address people who have a higher income.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is correct. I couldn't find that table in my documents, but if it is 10 high-income people living in social housing now, over the next two years those people's needs should be met through the home ownership program. It may not necessarily mean that it is met through the ACCESS program or the alternative housing program. More than likely, their needs would be met through the forgivable loan program, the direct lending program, bridge financing program or assistance to go to the bank to get a mortgage. Their needs should be met within the next two years, you are correct. Thank you.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For further information on the rental scale that will be implemented in the next four years, I haven't actually read the contents and have a hard time understanding some parts of it. It seems to me that the Minister stated the people who are not making as much money and cannot pay their rent are usually evicted. But to my understanding, you are stating there are quite a few people who are making more money and can afford to pay their rent.

There are a lot of people who are unemployed and are not making enough money. The people who are employed and are making enough money to pay their rent are going to be encouraged to apply for home ownership. Since there is no application form that they have seen for home ownership, and if you are not eligible to be in a rental unit, do you have to apply for home ownership?

With regard to home ownership, Mr. Chairman, the rules in getting home ownership are not up to date as yet. The people who are applying for home ownership can't get one because the units are gone already. Once that list is going, there is no other way of accommodating those people who want to apply for home ownership. Do you know exactly how many have applied for home ownership? Quite a few have applied and weren't agreed upon by the committees who decide. Are there going to be more units available then? Are there any plans to be able to cater to that many applications for people who are making enough money? I haven't seen a plan in the rental scale document.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Through the consultation process and through working with the local housing authorities in every community, we will be going from house to house and explaining the new rent scale to all the tenants in Inuktitut, as well as in English, and making sure they know all the options available to them. We will be doing that

with the local housing authority, as well as the Housing Corporation staff. I would be quite happy to arrange a briefing for the Member on the new rent scale with an interpreter supplied through the Assembly on a one-on-one basis. I don't have a problem with that. We can make that arrangement.

Once people understand the new rent scale -- and a lot of the recommendations did come from the people at the regional level into the rent scale -- they will realize that home ownership is the way to go. As far as people applying for home ownership last year, I don't have a clue how many people in the Northwest Territories applied. But I do know that we built 40 ACCESS units this year on spec that people would take them next year. There is no advantage to move into home ownership because rents were so low for high-income people. So we do have 40 units that I don't believe are taken up yet.

We also have northern rentals we can sell and some rent supps that we are looking at selling off. We have the direct lending and forgivable loan programs. That is financing that we can help people go to the bank with. We work closely with the tenant, take him through the process, take him to the bank or we finance him ourselves through direct lend or a forgivable loan. That way, we get more units for the same amount of dollars.

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, a short addition to my question. Is it wide open now, even if you are making quite a bit of money? There were certain limitations to be eligible for home ownership housing, are there certain limits now too, as for when a person may apply for home ownership under the Housing Corporation? And, once the housing associations have been informed about this new rental scale, even though some people are not eligible for home ownership, can they apply for this as well? That's my last question. Thank you.