Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to welcome the witnesses, again, to this committee of the whole. When I was very young, before I could remember anything, my mother died and it was up to my sister to look after me until the time I was old enough to look after myself. She was about four years older than I was, only about ten years old. Still, she looked after me as though she was a grown up woman. When I cried, sometimes she would cry with me. When someone was being mean to me, although she was not able to defend me, she used to try. Especially against the boys, I still have that memory very clearly in my head.

Now I'm married. I have a wife and two girls. I'm very close to my girls because they remind me of my sister when I was growing up. At least my girls have both parents. My wife is out of town and when I go back to my apartment there is something missing there. I enjoy going home when she is around. I can smell the food cooking or, likewise, I can at least cook for someone I'm very close to. I miss someone in the apartment when I have problems. When things are not going good for me in the House, I go home and we talk about it. When she is not around, I'm not able to do that. I have friends in Yellowknife. My colleagues are very close to me, but I'm not as open to them as I am to my wife, my partner.

Mother, to me, is first of all a release from all this strange environment, especially outside your home. Mother has very comforting arms, a very kind heart, we know that, very gentle hands, a doctor, someone who looked after you when you were growing up. When you get sick, she's always there. When things are going bad, she always knows what's happening. When you have problems, you didn't even have to say anything, she knows that. Each and everyone of us, all the politicians here, were one time in the womb of a mother. Mother, at times, was not feeling good because she had an extra heartbeat to look after, extra weight to carry. Perhaps when our mothers were carrying us in her body, perhaps she was abused, very likely.

We are now in the position to help women. It would be against nature, against the person who looked after us until we were able to go on our own, not to recognize the cry from women. We are now in the position to help them. I say to all my colleagues and people of the territories, let's do something concrete. Let's stop the violence against women. Nobody in this jurisdiction has more power than us sitting here, and I think it's about time we do something about it. I salute Mr. Stephen Kakfwi, the Minister of Justice, for his initiative. Now it's up to us to help the Minister. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to move to extend sitting hours to conclude this item.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to commend and thank the Minister, Stephen Kakfwi, for bringing this into the House, and for the documents he provided to us. I would also like to thank Nellie Cournoyea for her comments. I would like to thank our delegates, Ms. Brooks, Ms. Christophers, Mr. Okpik and Ms. Allen.

I am quite familiar with this subject because I guess I was one of the children who witnessed violence against their mothers. I saw that when I was very young. There's a history of this violence that goes back many, many years. It's not something that has just happened. I'm glad, it's about time it's come to a forum like this where we can try to discuss it and try to do something about it, as a body. I know there have been a lot of meetings and recommendations made in the past, right from the community level to the regional level to the national level. Now, we're in the Legislative Assembly. I think this is a good forum to discuss it and try to make some laws here, to try to do something about it.

In the presentations that we've had from our delegation, there are a number of suggestions and directions in the problems that are laid out which are familiar to myself. I'm aware of these problems. One of the areas of violence that I've witnessed in the past is brought on by alcohol. When people are intoxicated and drinking, that's when this problem usually comes about. Statistics are around, now, that most of our jails are full. And, that of people who commit crimes, the majority involve violence. It seems to be suggested that that's the only solution we have.

But there was another solution that was suggested here that deals with community healing, which I totally agree with, a holistic approach. A community in BC which is probably known by everybody here, is Alkali Lake, where they have done community healing. I don't recall at all in any of their healing processes where they sent anybody to jail. They seem to have done it within the community. At this point in time, it seems that the only solution we have here is that if somebody does a violent crime, you send them to jail. I know that in the capital plans of the future, we're going to have two more new jails, one in Inuvik and one in the Baffin. Is it to meet these increased convictions and violence? Is that why we're building new jails? I'm wondering that. I hope not. I hope there are ways of trying to find out how to deal with this problem. We have to deal with it, with a holistic approach.

I know some people who are serving time in jail now, and I'm told that in Yellowknife all they do is sleep, watch TV and eat. That's all they do for months. This one fellow I know, for 22 months that's all he's going to be doing. A jail situation, where it's a tougher more violent environment, is not a place for healing. When you're healing, you're dealing with the emotions and you're dealing with the problems you had in the past and so forth. When you're in jail, that's not the place to do this kind of healing.

The only way we can stop this whole topic of family violence is when people come forward, lay charges, then people go to court and you send them to jail. They do their time in that kind of environment. Once they're done, they come back into the same environment, so it becomes a vicious circle. What can we do about it? Take some suggestions, what we heard here, I think it was Bertha Allen who suggested we take a holistic approach, a community healing approach.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible -- I don't know who it would be, the Department of Justice or the Department of Social Services -- all these different departments have to work together to try to come out with such a plan and try to deal with it. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice if any approach like this has been considered on community healing, rather than shipping the offenders off to jail then coming back to the same environment. It's a question, Mr. Chairman.

I just wanted to determine the possibility of the holistic approach that was suggested here by one of the presenters being implemented. Is this government going to be supporting communities that want to take that route? Is there going to be something similar to the community healing approach to deal with all the problems within the community, rather than sending people away for treatment and then bringing them back? If that is the direction that we're going, that's great. We should work in that direction.

The other thing I would like to mention is about elders. We have problems in my constituency, especially in the community of Simpson where elders have been abused. It is the younger people who seem to be the problem. In talking to the elders, they are saying the younger people aren't listening to the elders any more. After they have been sent away to school, they don't know the language and don't know how to be Dene, for example. They don't listen to their elders any more. That seems to be a problem. There is a loss of a cultural connection. Respecting elders is a key cultural thing. A lot of us are teaching that to the younger people who are around us but some of them don't get taught that and, as a result, there are problems.

I'm trying to say that the breakdown of the cultural connection is a key problem. It's a difficult situation. We have to give more authority to people at the community level to deal with it on their own. Whenever someone is abused, you have to depend on the RCMP to do the enforcement. Why can't community people do it themselves? When they try to do that, they are offending the RCMP and the RCMP don't want you to do any enforcement on your own. The Dene cultural society is breaking down further and you can't protect your elders, women and children any more. You have to depend on the RCMP to do it. It is getting more and more difficult in this area.

I just wanted to make the comment that we have to protect our elders. That is something we should do in the Legislative Assembly immediately. I would support something that would do that, as soon as we can. People are saying we should put our money where our mouth is. As an MLA and as a former chief, I've always maintained that the people elect us because of who we are and not who we pretend to be. I think that goes in here.

One of the conditions in this declaration which is pretty strong is that if we get convicted, we should resign. That's a pretty powerful statement to make. I think it will show people in the north and in the communities that we are very sincere about the issue of violence in the north, if we take this position. I have no problem with it. I've always lived by that principle in the past. It is nothing new to me. I would support something like that. Mahsi. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank Mr. Kakfwi for his initiative in this area, to bring to our attention that this problem has to stop. I would like to encourage him to keep going and I will give him all the support he needs. Moral support and any other suggestions he may seek from us. I would also like to acknowledge Nellie's work in this area. She has done quite a bit to make us aware that this is an unacceptable practice.

And, also, I would like to commend the NWT Status of Women Council for their work which they have done for a long time. As well, I would like to thank the Native Women's Association, the Council for Disabled Persons, Bertha Allen for the community work she does in her region and Abe Okpik. I would like to thank them all for being with us and making us aware of the intensity of this problem.

Mr. Chairman, I consider myself very lucky. I was born in a small camp. I have a small family and I have never seen somebody beating up anyone. I recall, very vividly, the very first time one of our community members hit his wife. Everyone felt the hurt. In the Inuit way, if anything like that happens, the community gets together and deals with that person. My father was a leader of the camp and he got all of the people together to deal with that person.

I remember hunting and trapping was an everyday event. Because of that event, no one went out. It was such a big issue that everyone stopped. Now that we are living in the communities, the leaders have changed. We are in a changing time. The old leaders are not leaders any more. The leaders in the camps were not elected. They were leaders and they controlled the community and made sure everyone was fair to everyone else.

When the government structure came in to our communities, back in the 1960s, we were told to move into a community. It was a big thing for our family.

I have seen a statement, at some time, that says abusing is not a native way. I think that is true. I think, Mr. Chairman, in your earlier statement, you hit the nail on the head saying it is because we are in changing times, the people are frustrated about jobs, et cetera. They become abusers. I think it is not our way to abuse other people. It is the conditions in which we live and also a lack of education. The breakdown of our human values are causing us to be abusers.

I would encourage the government and also the native organizations, women's organizations or any other organizations that have concern in this area to work together. Like Bertha Allen said, the government cannot do it alone, the communities cannot do it alone and organizations cannot do it alone. Why don't we jointly approach this problem?

Mr. Patterson's statement that convicted people, if they hold a position, should resign. Convicted people should not be running for office. I agree with that. But it is difficult to convict people who are abusers. For instance, I went home for Christmas and one of my constituents was beaten very badly by her husband. I knew that husband had beaten her before. So I went to see that person at the hospital. She had broken ribs and wasn't feeling well. I said, are you going to charge your husband? She said, no. She said, he is really sorry. I said, that doesn't matter. There might not be a next time. Why don't you do something about it? She didn't want to. I called a lawyer in Iqaluit to see if anything could be done. I asked if the wife, who has been beaten up and is physically broken, doesn't want to charge her husband, could anything else be done? The lawyer told me if she doesn't want to do that, then the law cannot do anything. I think we have to encourage the federal government to change that law. So that people like nurses, doctors, teachers or RCMP can charge those people. Then it would be automatic. I think we have to do that.

I was listening to Abe Okpik. He made a statement to the effect that the abusers, before they abuse their wives or kids, should always remember where they come from, where they were born. I think we have to start saying that to the public. Like Mr. Antoine, I would agree, if I was prone to be abusive, then I should not be here. I think that goes for everyone, not just to legislators, but to mayors and regional boards, which are funded by this government. Thank you very much.

---Applause

I am emotionally moved by the support that is extended to this serious problem. I encourage all Members to help stop violence in our communities. When you are voting on this, think about your grandchildren and think about your own children. All of you are at an age where you will be grandparents, if not already. We are living in a very violent society. If you don't take the action now, who will? Thank you.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be making a short comment. Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the Minister of Justice for his initiative regarding zero tolerance to violence on women. I would also like to extend my appreciation to the Government Leader, who was behind this all the way. I would also like to thank the witnesses who have come here today to speak out against violence towards women. I support all the comments you have made.

Going back to my childhood, I would like to tell a short story. I grew up not knowing my father. I don't even remember what he looked like because he died when I was very young. However, when I was growing up, as a young boy, my mother used to be beaten up by my stepfather. It was very hard for me emotionally and I couldn't do anything to physically stop that violence. I still remember vividly what my mother went through. She went through agony. It hurts me to think I couldn't do anything in her defence. I would just like to say that we should do something about this now instead of talking about it, like we have done in the past. We will be supporting this initiative with every power we have within in us, as Members of this Legislative Assembly. I feel very deeply about this issue. I have indicated to my constituents that I will be supporting this all the way.

We all know that we are in a very serious situation today. I respect the people who have come here in support of zero tolerance. A lot of people still need some healing in the communities. It has to come from the families. We have to support the children who have been physically and emotionally abused. There needs to be a lot of healing done in this area. We have to start today to begin to heal ourselves and our children so we can look to our future and the young generation can have a brighter future.

When we lived in camps, our parents took very good care of us and our grandparents took good care of us. They didn't show any anger or violence towards their children because they lived in a carefree world at the time. However, we are living in a very difficult world and everything we do depends on what kind of background we've come from. There are a lot of different problems that have to be dealt with. I think we have to be utterly open now, to begin to be able to heal and to be able to support other people who need the support and the strength.

We all know we have to work together to make a better life for our children and our families. We have to begin to heal within ourselves and try to keep going. I would just like to say again that I appreciate the witnesses' comments. We will support you with all our strength and power in this Legislature. We will help you with any initiatives you have in the future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this zero tolerance declaration is an area in which I support the intent and the principle. But, if we target certain groups only then we are not, as politicians, being fair to other groups. In this case, we look at violence against women and children. Men and elders are not included in the declaration.

One of the other things that came up was the whole issue about Members' conduct. We have a code of ethics passed during the last Assembly. But, how far can we go? Major McLean is one individual in the Nova Scotia Assembly who got booted out. They tried to pass a membership act relating to that. Due to section one and three of the constitution, it wasn't allowed, I believe. And section 33, clauses 2, 7 and 15 of the charter certainly don't allow it. I wish the government all the luck in coming out with something that would actually expel or prevent someone from running for office.

This government hasn't done much with regard to zero tolerance in the first place. By declaring something like this, do you think that all of a sudden it will make the world turn out right? What is happening with regard to legal aid right now and restraining orders? What is the policy on that? Are we allowing legal aid to assist women who wish to have restraining orders placed on their husbands? In the case of the husband beating the wife, the husband should be the one who gets booted out, not the other way around. I've already written to the Minister of Social Services about establishing a shelter in Fort Providence so we can address the zero tolerance issue. Those are all areas in which we can implement zero tolerance but we are not doing much in those areas.

everybody?

The police already have a policy on violence. Although most of the time, it is men who create violence, their policy right now is that anybody who causes violence against women is arrested and put in jail, sometimes until he goes to court. But, there are cases where even when the men didn't create violence, they are kept in jail, by virtue of this policy, until trial time. These cases are dismissed when it comes to trial. We have created a situation where we treat men as the only ones who create violence and we punish them.

In Manitoba, they have accepted zero tolerance. Right now, they go through 1,000 cases a month, I think it is. They are backlogged 3,000 cases. How many of them are actual and how many of them are bogus? We don't know. Perhaps a woman could phone the RCMP and say my husband assaulted me and he is in the bar right now. The RCMP don't have any choice but to arrest that individual, by virtue of that policy. Manitoba is the only one. I was trying to get some statistics in order to find out whether or not, based on all those cases...About 80 per cent of the cases in Manitoba, the men are found guilty. But now, with this zero tolerance, how much of a success rate are we having now? We don't know. It could be 50/50, it could be less.

I think it was a group of men that started because of a white women's campaign, based on the Montreal massacre, that are now expressing concern over the zero tolerance. A lot of it is just frivolous. There is no basis for it, but it is happening.

Mr. Chairman, many sexual assaults came out as a result of a documentary that was done on St. Vincent's, I believe. With regard to my own family, I wasn't brought up in a violent environment. My dad is deceased. But he wasn't a violent man and he has always provided for us. In 1958, after alcohol became legal for aboriginal people or status people, it didn't have any effect on aboriginal people. Aboriginal people weren't around to drink themselves to death. My parents never caused violence or even parents of this generation. But a lot of violence has been created by my own generation. It is a target group of people who are doing it. But it wasn't because of the aboriginal influence that this has happened. It is a white influence that has created the problems that now exist. It is our own doing that this situation exists.

I just thought I would mention that. If we are going to be equal in any way, then we shouldn't have any biases. Gender equality points in a certain direction in which we would like to see women paid the same for the same service. But, at the same time, let's not isolate the men. A week ago, I received a phone call from a woman who said she broke her husband's nose. What did the husband do? She said he didn't do anything.

If you refer to sexual assault, it could mean any kind of touching without intent, indirectly and directly. I am always in the shadow of what I was charged with. It was many years ago, ten years ago, when I was a Member. But maybe it was an indirect assault. I never attempted to beat up my wife. But we were living in an environment which didn't allow for much movement in the tent. For me to get out, I had to push her out of the way. I was charged. At the same time, if I kiss her, without her consent, I could be charged again. So, I have been dealing with that situation ever since it happened. I am not trying to redeem myself, by any means. As far as I am concerned, and as far as my wife is concerned, there was never guilt established. But by virtue of the interpretation of the law, you are guilty. I have accepted that broad definition. I didn't go through an expensive process of proving my innocence. I pleaded guilty because, as far as I was concerned, I did touch her. Therefore, I was guilty because she didn't consent. A lot of the aboriginal people who go into court, when it is interpreted like this, how can you be dishonest? I have never seen cases, in the western Arctic, people going to trial in order to get leniency from the jury. Every Thursday in Fort Providence I see cases coming up, and a lot of it is minor, but guilt is established right off the bat. They don't deny it. You have to give credit to the aboriginal people for their honesty. At the same time, we are victims of a criminal system that puts aboriginal people into a position that they cannot deny it.

So, Mr. Chairman, those are my difficulties. I cannot support or not support a declaration that specifically addresses only women and children. I think if there were some changes to it to include zero tolerance of violence against all people, I would agree with it. Then everyone is involved. I have no difficulty with that. But if we are only going to be looking at certain groups and we adopt policies in order to make it difficult for men, then I cannot accept something like this. You have to be a saint and a model citizen, but how about the other people? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make a few points I had in mind, using myself as an example. First of all, I would like to say that I've always had difficulty in understanding social problems. Because I have a difficulty understanding problems like these, I shy away from it. I think it's natural for people to shy away from something that they don't understand.

I would like to say that I thank the witnesses for coming in and speaking to us, because I think it gives me a better understanding of what it is that the organizations who are here with us today are trying to do. I would also like to pass on that there are leaders in the communities who don't understand and when you try to pressure them they'll shy away. It's probably just because they don't understand, just like I didn't understand. I still don't understand to a large degree, many of the social problems that we have today, I will most likely refer people to proper social workers or people who deal with problems like that.

I would say, with that, that we have to make people understand that we want cooperation with the community leaders. Without cooperation with community leaders, or leaders such as this forum then we're not going to get anywhere. I realize this is a major problem, but it is still something that I don't understand because I grew up with a family where there was no violence.

I think the declaration that is being made by this Assembly -- and I hope that everybody approves of the declaration -- is a small step forward, but I think we'll be able to work together to try to solve some of the violent problems we have in the communities.

From the comments that have been made by Members here today, I also begin to see that we do have a long way to go, because it's people like myself who are leading people, but shying away from problems such as social problems. To say you recognize that you have this deficiency as a leader is very difficult to do. I think that is something that has to be recognized by care givers. That if you're going to approach a leader, you have to approach the leader with care...not with care but with the understanding that they may shy away because they don't understand the problem.

Some of the other issues that were raised by some of the Members where society says we need stronger sentences, or something that will make people change, I think by being forceful in many cases we make the mistake of giving longer sentences to offenders, where actually that individual probably needs counselling more than anything else.

I think a number of Members, such as Mr. Antoine, who touched on traditional counselling or a healing process or systematic counselling which could be given by governments or organizations such as our witnesses, is what is needed rather than longer sentences or sending people straight to jail. It's counselling that people need. I've seen situations in my constituency where offenders are sentenced to go to jail, but never given any kind of counselling. They come back and repeat the same offence they made. So I hope that we, as leaders, and the care givers will be able to work together towards a direction that we will lead our people through a healing process. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to commend my colleague, Mr. Kakfwi, for bringing this forward for discussion and for inviting the witnesses to talk to us about violence. One thing I would like to stress is that the title says family violence. When we talk about a family, we are not looking at a target group. Violence against women predominates. Since we have opened safe shelters we have been able to collect data on violence against women. But, I wish I could say the same for men because there are men who are abused. The only time we can do something about children is when they begin to start to show signs that they are neglected or abused. That is when Social Services intervenes.

Because we don't have any stats for violence against men, we really have nothing on record. Men also don't talk. I can understand where Members are coming from when they say that we are just targeting men. But this is a family issue, it is not just a women's issue. It involves the family. Like Mr. Kakfwi said, for the most part, we are talking about violence that takes place in the home and cases where victims and abusers not only know each other, but are in an intimate family relationship. I would endorse and give my full support to Mr. Kakfwi in this context when the motion is put forward. Thank you.