Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't want to argue with the concern of the honourable Member. I think that it is legitimate, except that I would ask the honourable Member to also consider the possibility of the educational system being somehow restructured so that it is based on aboriginal culture. The foundation by which we teach our children, whether they are aboriginal or non-aboriginal people, could, in fact, be based on aboriginal cultures. That is not to suggest we do not consider or respect the programs that are being offered, but I think we all know that heritage and language programs, for instance, support the actual culture itself. School programs are components that are founded on culture. In other words, the way we teach our children, the language in which we teach them and the history of our communities are all important in terms of making sure that we don't lose those aspects. So, in the development of the direction we take for education, we should consider that possibility. I think Dene Kede could be the foundation on which we make the change and restructure our system.
Debates of March 14th, 1994
Topics
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
I agree that some things should be maintained in the school system. My only problem, Mr. Chairman, is that if you are going to have it as part of the educational system, it has got to be part of the subject matter. It has got to be just like the history of Europe, the history of the United States or whatever the history may be. As such, I do not have any difficulty with that. I have difficulty when you start putting in the music component, the language component, the arts and crafts component and components like the skinning of animals. Those are the responsibilities of the community and we should keep them separate and allow the communities to develop their children and those skills with your help. That is all I am suggesting.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair Tony Whitford
Thank you, Mr. Gargan. General comments. Are we prepared to go in to detail?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Directorate And Administration
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Tony Whitford
The detail begins on page 18-12. Directorate and administration, total O and M, $3.565 million.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Culture And Careers
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, the Minister is aware that the Standing Committee on Finance expressed some concern about the $1 million reduction in the Arctic College budget. I have a copy of the letter that was sent by the chairperson of Arctic College to Mr. Koe, chairman of the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions in which she mentions that the college has used its own funds in the past to provide adult educators and to enhance their operations in communities when these funds haven't been available as part of the core funding coming from the department. Has the Minister considered that this $1 million that has been reduced from the core funding could perhaps be better used by expanding the extensive community education system and providing a better service, rather than clawing back some money that the college has managed to make on its own through third-party billings?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 580
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Well, I guess we all have to make some choices. In part of our Arctic College strategy, we are considering how we are delivering programs in Arctic College. The other thing is, some of the additional initiatives that we've undertaken will increase the total number of dollars that are going to be available for training. I would really be careful about how one reads the comments that have been made. I've not taken the view that Arctic College programming is unimportant. But, at the same time, we also have to look at
the potential resources that are available and try to access them. If it means the government cost-sharing those programs, I have to go back to Cabinet for the additional resources.
We just can't have resources out there that were initially cost-shared with the federal government when we don't have a cost-sharing arrangement. I would rather have the Cabinet approve additional resource on clear agreements rather than just having the resources out there. I accept the concern of the committee but, at the same time, what are we going to base the expenditure on? The initial expenditures and the commitments made by the Assembly were a result of an agreement and the federal government withdrew their share of that arrangement. If you're talking about the extra surplus, the fact is the college still has a $3 million surplus.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a bit of clarification, I believe the Minister, in his answer, just said that there had been an increased commitment to training. Specifically, how many dollars in this budget reflect that increase in training that he's talking about?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are two major ones, including $400,000 for the nursing program and $1.5 million for the teacher education program. The $1 million for the program everyone refers to was based on a cost-sharing arrangement with the federal government. The federal government withdrew their funding so the expenditures and the commitments that were made by this Assembly were based on that arrangement that was made. We don't need that particular commitment at this time. What we are now proceeding with through the investing in people program is to get a new arrangement with the potential of up to $4.5 million with the federal government. Those are resources that we will eventually have to vote and get the approval of this Assembly for.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so the Minister understands, while I am concerned about the $1.5 million less that CEIC is spending and the $1 million reduction, what I'm really most concerned about is the one-time reduction in contributions which requires the college to reduce its accumulated surplus. I mentioned that over the past year the college has funded, from its own resources, four community adult educator positions. I think without having that surplus, the college couldn't afford to do that kind of good work and I think it's very important that we have these community educators in the small communities where this government right now is not putting them. The college has seen fit to spend some of their surplus in order to fund that.
My concern is that by the government clawing back this surplus -- which, by and large, was generated through the sale of programs to third parties -- they are providing a disincentive to Arctic College to continue to fund these sorts of positions. I think it is very important that we encourage that kind of activity. If the college has been able to sell programs that they can make a profit on, I would just as soon see them turn that profit into providing educators in smaller communities where they are not present now. That's what I think we are cutting here. I'm questioning the decision to make that cut because I think it's wrong.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess I would have to disagree with the honourable Member. Why wasn't the Arctic College board doing more? Why did they have a $4 million surplus? What were they doing with the $4 million so that they had it as a surplus when communities out there require our support? The fact is right now they will still have -- despite the one-time adjustment down -- a $3 million surplus. The other point is that not all the revenues they've accrued have come from third-party arrangements. It has also been the result of the investment of dollars that we provide to them and where interest has built up over the last year. This is a one-time initiative on our part where we are saying we can use those resources elsewhere for this upcoming year.
I agree with the honourable Member, if the case is they should be investing those dollars in adult educators, then my view is why aren't they investing all of it for adult educators, if that's the important initiative? I agree with you. There is still a surplus of $3 million. I can't argue with the honourable Member on that issue. But there is still a $3 million surplus there and part of the question of investment or expenditures of those dollars is going to based on the final strategy that is brought forward to us. That has to be considered.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Tony Whitford
Thank you, Minister Nerysoo. The chair continues to recognize the Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is the Minister then saying that if the college were to commit to use these funds to expand the number of adult educator positions, he would agree not to touch the surplus again?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear on the hypothetical situation. However, I'll say this, Arctic College was already spending the surplus on programs and services, then there would not have been a surplus. But, they weren't spending money in these areas. If the case is that they are prepared to do that with no surplus, there wouldn't be a reason for us to cut any money. It's very simple. And, we would be prepared to accept that is where it is being expended. I don't disagree with the honourable Member.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 581
The Chair Tony Whitford
Thank you, Minister Nerysoo. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, during the detailed hearings of the Standing Committee on Finance on the budget, we were told that the majority of the surplus came
from third-party funds. Today, the Minister has indicated that some of the surplus has also come from investment proceeds. I want to point out that if you take surplus funds and use them for operating expenses, you're eventually going to run out of those funds and then, all of a sudden, you're left with positions that you can no longer pay for. Would the Minister not agree that it might be a worthwhile use of those funds to invest them and use the interest proceeds to pay for expanding the number of community adult educators? Perhaps, if the college was gaining interest in order to provide ongoing funding, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad move. If, in fact, as we were told in the Standing Committee on Finance, the majority of these funds did come from third parties or sales of programs to third parties, then I would respectfully disagree too with the position put forward just now by the Minister, that they weren't doing the job properly by having a surplus. I would say that government or arm's-length agencies like this should be encouraged to raise funds, where possible, by making sales of their programs or services to the public.