This is page numbers 655 - 687 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 675

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Information item, Liquor Commission, revolving fund...Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I ask the Minister, what the fee is for a special occasion licence?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, I don't have that information with me. I could provide it to the honourable Member.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if I could take a few minutes to comment on the liquor inspection situation in Iqaluit. Right now, as I understand it, an arrangement has been made with an individual in Iqaluit who has a reputation of having the ability to do a good job and being well-respected in the community. I am pleased that arrangement has been made since the town of Iqaluit asked to be relieved of the responsibility for doing liquor inspections. I would just like to suggest, since the present arrangement is expiring in March, that it could be improved upon. Although the millions of dollars of revenues that come out of liquor sales in Iqaluit probably could cover the cost of a full-time inspector, I am now not convinced that there is a justification for a full-time liquor inspector in that community, but I think what the department has come up with is inadequate. I would like to explain why.

As I understand it, the present part-time inspector has been given the sum of $1,000 to do his work inspecting licensed premises for a six month period from November 1993 to March 1994. At $20 an inspection, that works out to about 50 inspections or about ten a month. Since there are ten licensed premises in town, that works out to about one inspection a month if each premise is regularly inspected. I think that this is restrictive and is inappropriate. As it is now, I am told the people who run these licensed premises know that once an inspection has taken place, they are not going to see the inspector for another month or so. I would like to have a little more flexibility and action in the licensed premises in Iqaluit, and I know the Minister is aware that this is a very sensitive issue in Iqaluit. There was a stabbing last fall in front of one of the premises, and there are a number of good citizens who are very worried about this. So what I would like to see is the amount of inspections increased, and I would also like to see the inspector given some flexibility, so that, if people are saying a particular premises is out of control or is not acting responsibly, the inspector will have the flexibility to be able to go in there nightly for three, four or five days running to keep the premises on their toes.

I would also like to comment on special occasion licenses. There is a fair degree of concern about this in Iqaluit. There are quite a number of special occasion permits sought. I believe the fee is small compared to what you could charge, and I think that when one considers the cost of purchasing liquor, in Iqaluit anyway, people who are applying for these special occasion permits, whether they are charged fifty dollars or ten dollars, might not see much difference when one looks at the cost of the liquor. So I would like to suggest to the Minister that the fee could be increased. I think it is quite modest right now. I think this would ensure people take their responsibilities more seriously and don't apply for these things lightly.

Secondly, I would also like to suggest that rather than having the permit issued from the liquor warehouse where all they get is a sheet spelling out the rules that have to be followed, like you have to serve food and all those kinds of things -- and only once, at that -- I would like to see the liquor inspector giving out those permits. I believe he would then be able to explain the rules to each person who gets a permit, and also, they would know that the permit is being given by the person who is responsible for inspecting and the person who could blow the whistle if a special occasion permit is not handled properly.

So I guess I have a couple of suggestions here, Mr. Chairman: more inspections; more flexibility in inspections; increase the special occasion permit; and, have the liquor inspector issue that special occasion permit rather than a clerk at the liquor warehouse. I think, if those things were done, we would have an adequate liquor inspection system in Iqaluit without necessarily having to go to the expense of a full-time liquor inspector. So those are comments, Mr. Chairman, I am sure the Minister will take into account. If he wishes to respond, fine, but, otherwise, I am sure he will look into it and consider that advice. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister, you are not obliged to respond but if you wanted to, it is up to you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so that I can be helpful to the honourable Member, we are presently assessing the need for a full-time inspector and the fact is it may show that we don't need one. But we are also assessing the whole matter and taking into account the volume of liquor, the number of licenses and the possibility of even expanding the role of the inspector. So we are taking that into consideration. I want to say that our target date for completion is March 31, 1994, so we may be able to respond.

I think the comments that you made are very constructive, and we will be as responsive as possible.

I must say that the only reason that special occasion permits are being issued out of the liquor warehouse is because, of course, the municipality gave up the responsibility of issuing those special occasion permits. Your advice about the inspector issuing them is certainly a good one.

We are also looking at the whole matter of establishing guidelines surrounding the whole matter of issuing special occasion permits, so that might also be very helpful to us. Mr. Chairman, I also have a copy of fees and qualifications for liquor licenses and permits that I would be prepared to give the honourable Member. It does say that special occasion permits, in the ordinary sense, are twenty dollars, and special occasion permits resale based on load occupancy, zero to 50 persons is twenty dollars, 51 to 150 persons is seventy dollars, 151 to 300 persons is one-hundred dollars and more than 300 persons is one-hundred and twenty dollars. So I would be prepared to give you that document.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Information item, page 08-18, detail of work performed on behalf of third parties. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

We now go back to page 08-7, program summary, total operations and maintenance, $6.512 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Does the committee agree this activity, Department of Safety and Public Services, is concluded?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I would like to thank the honourable Minister and the witnesses for appearing before the committee. Thank you.

---Applause

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Qujannamiik. The next on the list that we have decided in the committee of the whole to appear before the committee is Justice. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed Department Of Justice

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Okay. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Stephen Kakfwi, would you have any opening remarks?

Introductory Remarks

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman there are a number of points that I want to bring to the Members' attention which I believe will be of interest as we review the budget for the Department of Justice.

Reorganization

Following the integration of corrections into the Department of Justice and the addition of an assistant deputy minister, Solicitor General branch, additional components of the department have been reorganized.

The firearms and the coroner's offices, which were originally part of court services, and then recently became part of the directorate, became part of the new division.

Community justice, which was previously a section of the corrections division, is now a division with a director reporting to the assistant deputy minister, Solicitor General branch. Community justice issues are, of course, much broader than institutional corrections. So this change demonstrates the importance of community justice issues in the overall mandate of Justice.

Victims of crime services which was previously part of the policy and planning division, directorate, has been moved to the community justice division, Solicitor General, thereby allowing for a closer coordination of victims services with other community justice initiatives.

The public trustee administers the criminal injuries compensation program, so the budget for that program has been moved from policy and planning to the public trustees office, which is part of legal services.

Legal interpreter training, which was part of the court services division is now part of the legislation division, which is responsible for the administration of official languages in the department, including French language legislative drafting and, now, interpreter training. The reorganization I have mentioned to date was achieved using existing resources.

Legal Aid

Following upon the recommendations of the Auditor General and the Public Accounts committee, a number of changes are being implemented. Notably, a new automated system for information management is being developed and will be in place for implementation during the first quarter of 1994-95. The Legal Services Board will be funding this internally.

Two staff lawyers have been hired to work out of the Yellowknife office, pursuant to the recommendation of the Strength at Two Levels report. Based on financial estimates provided within the Strength at Two Levels report, cost-savings to the legal aid program are estimated at $500,000 a year. This, together with staff lawyers in the regions, should assist in controlling fees paid to lawyers, which is the largest expenditure in the legal aid budget.

Registries And Court Services

The budget for court services shows an increase of two PYs, one for the sheriff's office and the other for administration of the Supreme Court. This increase is due to forced growth as the demand on court services to provide timely case management continues to grow. Last year, the volume grew by 20 per cent.

Following upon the successful completion of the land titles transfer from the federal government, a new fee structure has been implemented. Other fees in legal registries will be amended, effective April 1, 1994, and together these will generate additional revenues from commercial transactions, estimated at $300,000. Similarly, a new rate structure for court fees was introduced on January 1, 1994, which will generate an additional $350,000 a year. These new fees will bring the rate structure for registries and court services more in line with those in the south.

Regarding justices of the peace, another change was introduced in 1993-94. Consistent with the recommendation of the justice of the peace task force, fees for justices of the peace were increased to a level that reflects their increasing community justice responsibility. It will provide an appropriate level of compensation to ensure judicial independence and community respect for the position. Under the direction of Sam Stevens, new and experienced JPs continue to train and upgrade their skills through the continuing JP training program.

Corrections And Community Justice

The grants and contributions policy of the Department of Justice has been amended effective April 1, 1994. Notably, policies have been introduced to cover contributions to community groups for projects and programs in the areas of community justice and victims services. This was done in the interests of rationalizing and streamlining the approval process by which the department supports community groups in their work on behalf of victims and in the promotion and development of community justice.

Many projects were previously funded by way of complex contracts. Now many more will be funded through simplified grants and contributions. Consequently, the budgets for victims services and community justice show significant shifts from other O and M to grants and contributions.

The department will continue to emphasize the development of community justice as its contribution to the transfer of power and authority to communities, in line with the government's community transfer initiative. Community justice, in the long run, will be the principal vehicle for addressing the escalating costs in the justice system occurring as a result of the population increase and the increasing crime rate. In the area of corrections, this represents a crisis in our institutions, because the buildings are aging and are inadequate to meet the demand. Even if the introduction of community justice is enormously successful in bringing down crime rates and incarceration rates, we are going to need additional facilities in the corrections system. We hope to address this in the capital budget process over the coming years.

Firearms

In the area of firearms, the Department of Justice is in the process of negotiating a new firearms agreement with the federal government. The recent amendments to the Criminal Code have increased the costs of administering firearms acquisition certificates and especially the requirements for firearms safety training.

The Department of Justice is trying to negotiate the new cost-sharing agreement with the federal government, but at this time there is still disagreement about the content and design of the firearms safety training program and about whether the federal government will pay for the costs of delivering this program. The firearms safety course is to be approved province by province and territory by territory, but the federal government has established a national standard which stresses the use of handguns. We would like to have a course that will be recognized by all provinces, but at the same time, we don't like the idea of requiring hunters to learn about handguns before they can obtain a firearms acquisition certificate.

The federal government feels that the course can be delivered on a user-pay basis, but the high costs of delivery in the NWT makes this impossible. Until all this is settled, the true costs of delivering the service and the offsetting revenue can not be reflected in the budget.

I have set the arrangements in place to meet with the Minister later this month, when we will discuss especially the matter of firearms and the new requirements placed on us by the recent amendments to the Criminal Code.

Law Enforcement

There is another significant development in the area of law enforcement, which is not reflected in the estimates because negotiations are not finalized. The department is in the process of negotiating with federal officials, participation of the Northwest Territories in the federal First Nations community policing initiative. This would allow for the negotiation of tripartite agreements on a community by community basis, which could range from policing continuing much as it is now, to greater community control, and eventually to an independent police force accountable to a community or region, if that is the wish of the community.

We have also finalized an agreement which will allow for community policing projects commencing in Fort Good Hope and Coral Harbour. These will allow for the training of community residents to participate in community law enforcement. The evaluation of these projects will be useful in setting the direction for community policing.

Conclusion

Mr. Chairman, the delivery of justice programs in the Northwest Territories is becoming increasingly difficult. Resources are becoming scarce and, at the same time, the demand on the existing resources are growing. The volume of criminal charges is increasing, more people are requesting legal aid and the number of inmates is increasing. Like everyone else, the justice system is being asked to do more with less. As the Minister, I accept this reality and so does the department, but the department does not and cannot control the demand, and if the demand continues to grow as it has, we will not be able to continue without additional resources. The upcoming year will no doubt be a challenge to the department, the government and the Legislative Assembly as we wrestle with this reality.

I invite the Members to provide comments and review our budget projections. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. On behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance, do you have any introductory remarks, Mr. Ng?

Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 16th, 1994

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The Chair John Ningark

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance from our review of the Department of Justice.

River Ridge Review

The committee is glad to see the Minister addressing the River Ridge Young Offenders' facility and concerns related to its triple designation. We await the results of the review of River Ridge -- and of the facilities in Iqaluit and Hay River as well -- which the Minister instituted following the recent difficulties at River Ridge. Committee Members noted that the Minister expects the review to be completed before the end of the fifth session of the 12th Assembly.

Resource Allocation To The Department

The committee is concerned that the Minister talked about feeling fleeced of resources to fulfil his department's mandate. It is the Minister's responsibility to make a strong and forceful case at the Cabinet table for the resources needed to meet the objectives of the department.

Police Services

Concerns have been expressed by many communities, large and small, about the lack of adequate police resources.

Recommendation 21

The committee recommends that the Department of Justice undertake a comprehensive study to determine community policing needs and take the necessary steps to ensure that all communities in the NWT have adequate policing protection.

Community Justice

A fundamental difficulty with the administration of justice in the north is that we have a justice system developed by one culture being applied to others. The First Nations of the north have a very different view of justice than do the mostly European immigrants who introduced our present justice system. The makes the Department of Justice's task quite a difficult one.

While the department has undergone some reorganization to help them do their job, the department still has a way to go to establish a presence at the community level. Communities have, for many years, felt that they have not seen the workings of the department except through the presence of the RCMP and the court circuits. Community justice specialists should help communities to access available funding to develop and implement programs at the community or regional level. They can then, with the department's help, set up community policing programs like those currently operating in Coral Harbour and Fort Good Hope, or on the land programs for offenders. As well, community justice specialists should provide advice about individual rights under the justice system, how justice procedures work in the north, and so on. The committee expects these new community justice specialists to be proactive.

Firearms Legislation And Safety Training

Recommendation 22

The committee recommends that the Department of Justice make every possible effort to ensure that the new federal firearms legislation, which has already been passed, is applied in the Northwest Territories so as to interfere as little as possible with hunting methods widely practised by northern hunters and families.

Zero Tolerance For Violence

The committee recognizes and supports the Minister's efforts in developing a strategy for dealing with violence in the NWT and in moving forward with the declaration on family violence on behalf of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories. The declaration states that the Legislature of the NWT, "adopts the principle of zero tolerance of violence against all people and endorses the goal of eliminating family violence by the year 2000."

However, the committee, during the review of the main estimates, did not see any clear indication of how these goals were going to be achieved. There appears to be few, if any, new resources in this department or in any department which are allocated to making this a reality. The committee addresses this issue more fully, in this report, in the section on Social Services.

Recommendation 23

Partners In Youth

The Partners in Youth project being piloted in Edmonton was discussed under Education. We strongly recommend that the Department of Justice participate with the Departments of Education and Social Services in implementing such a proposal in selected northern schools on a pilot basis.

That concludes the report.

Committee Motion 22-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 21, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

I would like to move on recommendation 21. I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Justice undertake a comprehensive study to determine community policing needs and take the necessary steps to ensure that all communities in the NWT have adequate policing protection.

Committee Motion 22-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 21, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Ng. Your motion is in order. To the motion.