When we come back we'll get on with that. We'll have a very short recess.

---SHORT RECESS

I would like to call the committee to order. We agreed before the break that we would deal with the Housing Corporation and also with Committee Report 4-12(7). Mr. Morin, since this is your corporation, I wonder if you'd like to make some opening remarks, please.

Minister's Introductory Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Legislative Assembly. I am pleased to present the 1995-96 O and M contribution and budget for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.

For 1995-96, we are asking the Legislative Assembly to approve an O and M contribution of $62.035 million.

As Members are aware, the federal government has not committed to any long term financial support for new social housing construction. However, the corporation still receives CMHC funding for the operation and maintenance of over 5,200 cost-shared rental units. This funding is provided under agreements with CMHC and will be in place for many more years. In addition to the funding provided by this government, it is estimated that during 1995-96, CMHC will provide $48.82 million in O and M funding.

In 1994, the corporation undertook an extensive consultation process, with communities. During the consultation process the impact of the federal funding cuts was explained and the corporation received many suggestions on how to improve the delivery of programs and services.

Improving the way the Housing Corporation operates and delivers its programs and services to clients and communities will be a priority in the 1995-96 fiscal year. The corporation is developing a strategic focus for the delivery of social housing into the future. This will also include options for restructuring the corporation, to improve its effectiveness and to promote a client and community focus.

A plan dealing with the management of the government's staff housing program will be tabled in the Assembly later in the session. The Housing Corporation is working with the departments of Personnel and Public Works and Services, and the Financial Management Board Secretariat, to develop this comprehensive plan.

The corporation is a member of the social envelope committee and works closely with government departments to improve the overall delivery of social programs. A long-term plan for the provision of elders' and seniors' housing, and the community wellness strategy are areas where the corporation is working in partnership with government departments.

Corporation staff will also continue working with local housing organizations who are interested and able to take on a greater role in delivering housing programs. New partnership agreements which provide greater flexibility in the delivery of housing programs and services have been developed in consultation with communities.

In November 1994, the Arviat housing association became the first LHO to sign a new partnership agreement. A second agreement with the Pond Inlet housing association was signed on February 1st. Agreements with Fort Providence and Fort McPherson are expected shortly.

Increasing community control and responsibility for housing programs is one way of ensuring that programs and services are provided in an effective manner.

To achieve this, communities have to feel comfortable taking on added responsibility and that means training. The corporation is developing a strategy that will lead to training and development to support housing staff working at the community level.

As well, the corporation has developed an assessment framework to identify the training and support needs of LHOs. An assessment of the Fort McPherson housing association has been completed. Other LHOs will be assessed over the next several months.

With limited funding for new housing construction, maintenance of our existing rental housing units is very important. The corporation is undertaking joint maintenance reviews in all local housing organizations. Community-specific action plans will be developed to improve maintenance operations.

Over the last year, the new down payment assistance program has been introduced. This program takes advantage of private market financing to build home ownership units. A forgivable down payment, up to a maximum of 25 per cent of the cost to build or purchase a new home, is provided by the corporation. The remainder of the cost of the house is financed between the client and a bank.

For the past few years, the corporation has been in a development mode. New home ownership programs and a new rent scale have been developed. It is now time for the corporation to review this process, to improve on what has been developed and to move toward greater community control of program delivery.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks. I would be pleased to answer questions from committee Members. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you very much, Mr. Morin. Now we will go to the review of the main estimates by the Standing Committee on Finance. Ms. Mike.

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The inclusion of the Housing Corporation in the social programs envelope highlights the importance of adequate housing in the social needs of northerners. Committee Members frequently note that achieving the goal of adequate social housing for all northerners would have effects that would eliminate many of the social difficulties experienced by our people.

The effect of the $47 million in cuts to social housing funding by the federal government in 1992 are still being felt quite strongly by northerners and by the government. But the committee is concerned that the Housing Corporation has still not yet responded to the "new reality" forced upon us by those funding cuts. The corporation has outlined plans for corporate restructuring; however, and committee Members hope that his restructuring will make the corporation better able to meet the social housing needs of northerners with the reduced funds available.

The fact that many of the corporation's staff work in headquarters -- almost 100 person years -- is the most obvious area of concern. Effective delivery of social housing needs a flexible, decentralized organization with most of the resources focused in the communities. Local housing authorities should be given the flexibility and the ability to be innovative, to develop solutions that will work for their communities.

Of course, the Government of Canada still has the fiduciary responsibility to provide housing for the First Nations of the north and of all of Canada. The committee appreciates that the government was able to arrange for about $9 million in federal funding earmarked for providing housing on reserves, even though most northern aboriginal people do not live on reserves. This government, and its successors, must continue efforts to make the federal government live up to their responsibility to provide this housing.

On a related note, committee Members are concerned over the reliability of O and M funding provided by CMHC for rental housing. While the Minister assured the committee that the agreement with CMHC was a secure long-term arrangement, committee Members would urge the government not to take that funding for granted. The government must continually monitor the fiscal and political climate in Ottawa, and make every effort to prevent the federal government from considering this as another possible cutback target.

Finally, the committee wishes to again point out their concern over adequate housing for elders. Most elders would prefer to live at home as long as possible rather than move into an institution. Home care programs offered by the Department of Health and Social Services can make this possible. However, if the elder's home is inadequate, poorly heated, poorly constructed, or otherwise unsuitable, then home care is not a realistic option. The Housing Corporation should make the provision of adequate housing for our elders a priority in their goal of ensuring that all northerners have access to adequate housing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Morin, would you like to deal with your estimates from your chair or would you like to go to the witness table? Would you like to call in some witnesses? How do Members feel about that?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Sergeant-at-Arms, maybe you could ask the witnesses to join Mr. Morin at the table.

Mr. Minister, may you could introduce your witnesses for the record, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my left is Jim Nelson, vice-president of finance and to the right is Al Menard, president of the Housing Corporation.

Thank you. Welcome. We're on page 03-11, Housing Corporation. That's where the program summary is. Any general comments or statements from Members? Mr. Ballantyne.

General Comments

I have one comment and a question. It seems to me, with the track record of the federal government cutting back on the capital side of funding, the next thing they are going to do over the next few years is cut back on the O and M side of funding. I think it's almost inevitable. And, after they've cut it back significantly, they'll probably turn over the remnants to the provinces and territories. I don't see any other way that this is going to happen. If the Minister agrees that this is a chance that this is going to happen, what steps has the Minister thought about to pre-empt what is, to me, a sad inevitability facing us?

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CMHC's O and M contribution to the Housing Corporation is provided under contractual agreements. Some of them end in the year 2030. While these agreements are legal partnership arrangements, we do not take them for granted. Corporation finance officials are continually monitoring these agreements and the financial situation in Ottawa with CMHC. We'll constantly do lobbying in the south to make sure they don't undercut our agreements.

On February 27th, I received a letter from the Honourable David Dingwall, Minister of CMHC, to confirm the federal government's commitment to continue supporting these agreements. That takes care of the agreements, but there are other ways of cutting it, possibly. For example, we've already seen the new rent scale driven by CMHC saying you either do this or this is what you lose. We will continue to work with them to try to convince them of the special needs in the Northwest Territories. Even though we lost $47 million, we haven't been hit as hard as other jurisdictions in this country.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Ballantyne.

I agree with the Minister with the fact that there are many ways for them to weasel out of contractual arrangements, definitely. They just have to change some of the criteria, and they can change them dramatically. There are a number of civil servants who work for Ottawa who thought they had a contract with the federal government as far as their employment security and they found, much to their dismay, that wasn't true.

Monitoring is fine but I really think, and this is just a personal view, that you have to make pre-emptive strikes in these situations. We were monitoring the capital side of it and it doesn't matter, you can monitor it and one day, they tell you you are cut. I brought this up to the Minister before, has the Minister considered taking the bull by the horns and saying that you want to now, with the existing funding, negotiate it being turned over to the Government of the Northwest Territories or the Government of the Northwest Territories in partnership with aboriginal groups now, when we actually have money that's significant?

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In review of the budget with the Standing Committee on Finance, I made a commitment to the Member we would look at that and see how we could accomplish that. The corporation is doing that.

Mr. Ballantyne.

Perhaps the Minister can give me a time frame when we can expect a formal response from the department as to whether or not they're going to pursue this and, if they are, how they're going to pursue it.

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are not the only ones pursuing this course of action. My understanding, from staff corporation meetings that we attend in southern Canada with other jurisdictions, is that other jurisdictions are also interested in this. We have a ministerial meeting of all jurisdictions in the very beginning of July. We'll pursue it there and hopefully come to some kind of conclusion by the fall. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Morin. Does anybody else have general comments or statements about the Housing Corporation? Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I have a few questions arising from the honourable Minister's opening comments, one concerning the agreement he mentions with the housing associations. What kind of agreement is this? For instance, he mentions LHO. What does that stand for?

---Laughter

Mr. Morin, maybe you would like to answer that question.