Thank you. Clause 2. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Clause 2. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, just to follow up on my colleague's comments, Mr. Dent indicated that the Member's charges that fall under this bill are violence against a person, but in the event that a Member partakes in some type of roadblock or protest, etcetera, and there are threats being exchanged without any physical violence being exchanged, is it not correct that with the threats alone, the Member can be charged. Can I get clarification on that?

Thank you. Are you asking the mover of the motion? Mr. Dent.

Ms. MacPherson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the example that Mrs. Marie-Jewell described where violence is threatened against another person or persons --in the plural - for example in a picket line or in a blockade, yes, it is possible that charges of assault could be laid. The Criminal Code defines assault as a person who commits an assault when he applies force intentionally to another person or he attempts or threatens to apply force intentionally. So if there are threats of violence being levied at a picket or in a blockade, then an assault charge could be laid and if a person were convicted, the provisions of Bill 32, if passed, would come into effect. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Qujannamiik. Clause 2 of Bill 32. Member for Thebacha.

Just for further clarification, Mr. Chairman, if I could ask the mover of the bill, could they give an example of when violence against a person is used or attempted? Can they give an example of clarification on the word "attempted"? What's attempted violence, when you lift up your hand toward striking a person or make a motion towards

walking towards them? Can they give us an example of attempted violence. Thank you.

Thank you. Can you substantiate, Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Legal counsel, Ms. MacPherson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Marie- Jewell is correct. If I lifted up my hand to try to strike somebody else, that would be an act of violence because I would be attempting to strike somebody else. A case where violence is threatened is where I sit here and I say I'm going to hit you but I don't do anything. I'm threatening an act of violence as contrasted with a physical move which is captured under the heading of an attempt. If I move towards Mrs. Marie- Jewell in a threatening fashion, that could be construed as an act of violence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. The honourable Member for Thebacha.

Can we get clarification from Mr. Dent's legal counsel on what is the definition of "threatened." How do you interpret it legally?

Thank you. Ms. MacPherson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It can be interpreted in a number of different ways depending on the facts. It would be very dependent on the facts of each case. I can tell you that the Criminal Code states that the attempt or the threat has to be done in such a fashion that the person who is receiving the threat believes, on reasonable grounds, that the assaulter has the means of carrying out the assault.

So, if I'm here and I lift my hand towards Mrs. Marie-Jewell, there's probably not a realistic prospect that I could carry out my assault on you because of the presence of the Sergeant-at- Arms. It depends on the context in which the gesture is made. The person who is the target, if you will, of the attempt or the threat has to believe on reasonable grounds that I have the present ability to carry it out. There has to be some realism to the threat or the attempt in order for it to be caught under this section. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Just like when we are playing baseball, when it's a strike in baseball, how far do you go? On clause 2. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, I think it's important that these types of comments get on the record for future reference, especially in the event that a Member gets charged with any of these types of offences and that there's a clear understanding of what the public should expect. I would like to ask Mr. Dent's legal counsel whether or not there has been any case law reviewed and if there has been case law concerning the definition of "threatened" or attempted violence.

Thank you. Ms. MacPherson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm confident that there is case law on this. The charge of assault is a very common one and it covers in it a number of different elements. I'm very confident that there has been case law that considers this section in many different factual contexts. It is difficult to deal with this section without having a factual context to place it in, because it depends so much on whether there is a reasonable belief that the assaulter has the means of carrying out the assault. That would very much be dependent on the facts in each and every case, as to whether your belief was reasonable and whether I had the means to carry out my threat or attempt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. The time being 6:00 pm, I will recognize the clock and report progress. Mr. Dent, Ms. MacPherson, Ms. Stewart, thank you.

The House will come back to order. Item 20, report of committee of the whole. Mr. Ningark.