This is page numbers 22 - 53 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was work.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 50

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to talk about the portion of the Premier's statement, where he talked about impact benefit agreements. I would like to commend the Cabinet on the hard position that they had taken with the BHP people. I firmly believe that without that hard stance we would have never had the progress that was established between the BHP people and the aboriginal groups. It has been said that this was because the federal government said that there was only the sixty days, and that there had to be substantial progress, but I firmly believe that without the Cabinet's firm stance, that it would have gone ahead anyway, because the federal government would have used anything, and said it was substantial progress. I commend Cabinet for taking that stance. I know it was not easy to do so. In light of the fact that many people were afraid that the mine was not going to go through.

On the community empowerment issue, I think that people should remember there that it is an opportunity to create jobs as well in the communities, where there is a very high level of unemployment. There has been a lot of talk about job creation. The Minister of Education, Culture and Employment earlier indicated that there are 1,700 jobs now in the mining industry with a potential for another 1,100 jobs in the next 10 years. Also, there is a potential for 1,800 jobs in the construction area, another 800 in the mine support businesses, and another 100 jobs in small businesses. That is all great, but what good does it do to have all those jobs if the majority of the people do not have the training or the education to take advantage of those jobs?

The Premier also indicated that we should now focus on three core priorities for the future. Two of those priorities are to improve economic conditions and to address social conditions. You cannot do that without improving the education of the people. You can, I guess, but the success of your programs will be severely hampered if the thousands of people out there with grade 9 and less remain at the same level. They are too low to get training, they are too low to get apprenticeships and it is just despair. Many people have also talked about suicide, unemployment and the rest that is all related to education.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to read a portion of a letter I have sent out to everybody which indicates how education is related to everything.

"For a number of years, the Legislative Assembly has stressed the need for education for all northern residents. Education has received a high profile and legislators have made repeated efforts to improve our system, both for youths and adults. For example, we have adopted the small school secondary program, implemented a new education act and dramatically expanded the roles of Aurora and Nunavut Arctic College.

As we enter the second year of our deficit management plan, I am becoming concerned about what we are doing in terms of education funding. So much of what we want to do is dependent on improving the education levels of northerners, but are we being penny-wise and pound foolish? We have talked about the need to invest in people. Is it just a slogan or can we find a way to ensure this happens so that there are long-term gains for all territorial residents?

The priorities we set in our Agenda for Change also depend on improving the education levels of northerners. We talk about a healthier, better educated and more self-reliant citizenry who have more access to more of the jobs they want and need. We talk about improving social conditions by improving social programs so they are directed to the root causes of individual and group needs in areas like education. We talk about improving economic conditions by enhancing the creation of jobs and maximizing the number of residents that fill them. We talk about empowering communities to make their own decisions. We also talk about working towards healthy communities and community-based problem solving by supporting a community wellness initiative."

Mr. Chairman, all these priorities are based on people having the education to take advantage of new and existing opportunities.

We also stressed the need to improve the employment of northerners in the public service. We have all said education is important to making that a reality. How can we worry about creating a representative government staff while we cut away at the educational supports that are necessary to allow northerners to take these jobs. We do not have to look any further than the many reports produced by departments over the years to see the link between education levels and the ability of northerners to take care of themselves and their children financially and emotionally.

Education is directly related to income levels. Income levels are directly related to the level of social problems. Since we have a much lower education level than the provinces, it is no surprise that we also have a correspondingly much higher rate of social problems.

Very recently we received from Nunavut the Unified Human Resources Development Strategy. There, again, it indicated that less than one third of the people with grade 8 or less have jobs. It also indicated that the Inuit labour force had 61 percent with grade 9 or less. In 1989, the NWT Labour Force Survey indicated that 44 percent of people with grade 8 or less were employed while people with a university degree, 95 percent of them were employed. One hundred percent of the Aboriginal population with a degree were employed. That shows the distinct link between education and a person's ability to participate in the labour force.

In our own Department of Education's work as well, coming from Aurora College Corporate Plan 1995-2000, it shows a clear link between education/employment opportunities and pay levels. This came out in 1994. It shows that people with grade 8 or less have only a 33 percent chance of getting a job and that they only make $13,000 a year. It also shows that if you have grade 9 to 11, you have about a 50/50 chance of getting a job, and you will make around $21,00 or less. Since 95 percent of Aboriginal children drop out in the Northwest Territories, that means that 95 percent of all our people that have dropped out of school are making $21,000 or less. We have a very, very young population. If you look at Aurora College's report, people with a university degree have a 93 percent chance of getting a job and will make close to $50,000 a year. If we take a closer look in 1996, there was a snapshot of the western NWT labour market. This showed that 29 percent of those with less than grade 9 have a job. This was this year -- only 29 percent -- while 91 percent of those with university degrees have jobs.

Everything is all related. Education is related to poverty, suicide and everything else. From the Canadian Fact Book on Poverty in 1989, it showed that the high school drop-out rate for children from poor families was 2.2 times the rate of other children. So if you are poor, your chances of dropping out is 2 times as high as someone else. If you look at children in care, that same report says that up to 75 percent, depending what part of the country you are from, come from low income families. The child mortality rate was twice as high for low income people. Poor people, if they have kids, that child is twice as likely to die as coming from a high income family.

Another thing related to mortality is drowning. That same report indicates that drowning is 3.4 times more common for boys from low income families. Every year we hear about so many people that drown and most of them are boys up here. This same report says that if you come from a low income family, you are almost 2 times as likely to have a psychiatric disorder. You are almost 2 times likely to do poorly in school and you are more than 2 times likely to behave distractively than if you came from a family with a higher income.

Mr. Chairman, it seems that our answer is clear. If you want to improve the suicide rates, you want to improve the drop-out rates, you want to take people off social assistance, you want to take them out of foster homes, you have to educate the people. Yet, we are doing less in the area of education.

We have just heard that the last time we were here the Minister of Education indicated that with this recent round of cuts to the school boards that we are going to have the highest student-teacher ratio. Not all of our communities have adult educators. I do not know what good all this talk about job creation is, if the people who need those jobs the most, do not have the proper education to take advantage of those jobs. Thank you.

--Applause.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 51

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Morin, do you want to respond?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 51

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our government, at present, out of a billion dollar budget, spends approximately 700 million of that in the social envelope. We are committed to educating people and committed to making it accessible to people. There is no possible way of reducing the costs or reducing our budget deficit without taking a look at the social envelope. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 51

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Erasmus, do you wish to make some more comments? I have two more members on my list, Mr. Henry and Mr. Krutko. Mr. O'Brien, I have to recognize Mr. Henry as being next. Mr. Henry.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 51

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The opening remarks of the Premier, I believe, are certainly positive. But the comments that I have heard from the Premier in this forum this afternoon, supercede any comments that he had written. I was more than pleased to hear the comments coming from the Premier, as regards who is responsible in a community for the betterment of the community. I would encourage the Premier to educate all of us, all of the people of the Northwest Territories, as to who is responsible for creating economic activity. The government cannot create economic activity. It can facilitate it. But the spark has to come from individuals or groups of individuals.

I would certainly commend the Premier and encourage him to continually educate the people of the Northwest Territories. Educate them about mobility; that we cannot bring jobs to the people. People have to be prepared to get educated, get up and go and get the jobs. That may be a little slow progress, but I think it is a fair way to treat people, instead of trying to fool them that the government can do all these things. I would encourage the Premier to continue to encourage students to stay in school, about the importance of getting an education. I wonder about the number of people in the Northwest Territories, students and adults, who did not take advantage of the education system that was put in place, and are continuing to get education. I get the feeling that that is all we do in the Northwest Territories, is continually educate people. I think there is a difference between educating and retraining people.

The Premier also talked about the socio-economic agreement. In this one he talks about guaranteeing over half the jobs. I think that may be a little premature to suggest that we are guaranteeing that number of jobs. There are so many loopholes in this agreement, that it does not guarantee what the Premier is proposing. There are so many outs for the company. One of the outs is, I think it is reasonable, assuming that there are sufficient and qualified northern residents, also the percentages of employment, they talk about it as an objective to be achieved. There is nothing in this agreement that has any teeth to put penalties in place for non-compliance with the agreement. I would just like to ensure that the people of the Northwest Territories are not too anxious that there are guarantees that may not be able to be lived up to by this government.

I would also encourage the Premier, as has been done by the member from Tuk, that I think there is a perfect opportunity as regards the potential creation of jobs. I think building an infrastructure such as was proposed, Roads to Resources, I think it is extremely timely, from the situation that the federal government were able to support Bombardier, as the Premier has mentioned. I think there is a perfect opportunity for them to contribute to the north at this time.

In closing I would suggest that the best strategy that the government can take is to create the atmosphere where business can do what it is good at, creating jobs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 51

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Morin, do you wish to respond?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 51

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As far as the agreement that we negotiated, the socio-economic agreement with BHP Diamond Mines. The reason that we wanted to make sure that we did not put any penalties in place is, we approach it as a partnership with the mining company, as well as our aboriginal communities. If you put penalties in place, those numbers would have been a lot lower, it was as simple as that. If they cannot meet the numbers that are there, and it is strictly up to northerners, and it is strictly up to us as a government, as well, to help our people get prepared to go to work. And I have made it very clear already to the young

people of this country, in the Northwest Territories. Because we have negotiated the jobs, negotiated the socio-economic agreement, does not mean you have a right to work. We open the door for you to go to work. Now it is up to you to get educated. It is up to you to get up in the morning, and it is up to you to get on the plane to go to work. All we can do as leaders is open those doors. We have done that. If we find down the road, say in a year, that those numbers are not being met, then we will work with the company to fix the things so that they can meet those numbers. That is how we are approaching it. We are approaching it as a partnership. That is how we are doing it, and we look forward to working on that mining development just north of here. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 52

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. I have Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regards to the Premier's statement in his opening remarks, is that we have been here almost a year, I raised this question last year when we got elected. It is the whole question about fairness and equity to all regions, based on the statistics that we have in front of us. Yet in my riding, it is great to say, coming from areas where there is activity, and also where there are employment opportunities, but there are areas where we do not have the economic base, we do not have the economic opportunities, and also, we do not receive the fair capital expenditures like some other regions.

My riding consists of almost 2,000 people, and gets something like one million dollars a year in capital. Yet there are other areas which range from eight to nine million dollars. We are talking about fairness and generating economic opportunity, especially making the comment that this government does not generate employment opportunities or economic opportunities. I find it kind of an insult, knowingly, that a lot of these capital projects, what they are there for in a lot of these other ridings, they do generate employment, they do have spin-offs to those communities or ridings that they are in.

Looking at the capital expenditures for the next couple of years, I see that nothing has changed. We are sitting at the same level of capital expenditures, about one million dollars. Yet there are still projects being taken out of the budget, especially in the areas of Aklavik and places which have not been fairly treated over the years, in regards to health centres, renovations, and other projects that they have been looking at, in regards to developing infrastructure. Also, in regards to the whole question about employment opportunities. You can send all the people to where all the jobs and train them, but if the opportunities are not there, I think that we have to seriously look at generating those opportunities so people can stay in their communities or their regions.

In regards to the Mackenzie Delta, we have had an oil and gas boom in the past, and that is an economic opportunity that we have to make an attempt to get back, and make an emphasis on companies out of Calgary, and other areas to show that there is still an interest by the communities and regions to support that activity, and start looking at lobbying those areas, instead of just putting all of our money in the mining basket, diamonds. It is great for that area, but in my area, we have been in a slump for a number of years, because of the downturn in the oil and gas activities.

Yet there are moneys being spent to lobby industry, especially in the mining industry, but there is no money really spent in areas such as the Mackenzie Delta, to lobby the oil and gas industry. There has to be an attempt made to improve the economic conditions in those areas. There are funds going to other regions to start consultation between industry, such as the mining companies, also the oil and gas companies, but I think that, in regards to the Mackenzie Delta, there is interest being shown by the oil and gas industry which attended the board meeting in Aklavik two weeks ago. They are interested in coming back. But that message has to be given by this government also. We have to show that we are interested in generating economic opportunities, employment opportunities in those areas that do not have it.

Also, in regards to the whole question about division. We talk about division in the context of wanting two strong territories after division. But that also has to mean strong regions. In regards to having an economic base and also having infrastructure in place so that we can deliver those programs and services at the regional level, such as the Inuvik Health Centre, hospital, we have to start finding new areas and looking at exactly what these programs and services are going to look like after division. The costs to administer programs and services in the west and in the east.

The other area is the constitutional process in the west. This government has made public statements that it is a priority, but it has to put it's money where it's mouth is, and support this ambition financially, without using the argument, well, it is the federal government's responsibility, let us wait for them. I do not think we can afford to wait any longer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 52

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Morin, do you wish to respond? You have a couple of minutes before I recognize the clock.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 52

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our government has always put the money where the mouth is in the past on the western constitutional development. We have always paid our share. Right now the minister responsible will be meeting with the federal government, next week I believe, to have the federal government clarify their position of where they are coming from and what they are willing to entertain for a constitution for the west. This has been agreed to by the aboriginal people that Mr. Krutko represents as well as the aboriginal summit on doing that process, working in this direction. They have all agreed already to go in that direction. We as Cabinet are not going to question that decision of the Aboriginal groups as well as the minister.

As far as the message we have given out - and I have always given out when I talk to people about developing in the north - it has always been with minerals, gas and oil. I have met with some oil companies that were talking about developing around the Fort Providence area, as well as, in the Deh Cho area by Fort Liard, and talked to them about hardships they had going into those areas because of how the federal government works. In your area it is fairly straightforward because of the claim. It is easier to do. I was just talking the other day to one person and they said that more land became available for oil exploration as well in the Sahtu - something like 10 more blocks of land, whatever that means. That will help.

Arctic College is also working at providing training for northerners in the Liard and Sahtu areas. They would be ready to provide any ongoing training as needed in the Beaufort area once oil and gas companies return to that area. The biggest thing that would help the Beaufort to develop the oil and gas industry there would be the development of infrastructure in that area and the development of being able to get those things to market.

We also, as a government, in the last year negotiated, settled out of court, or whatever you may say, sued the federal government for that IPL pipeline and reduced the tariffs on that line so we have created an atmosphere and an environment that reduced the cost of shipping oil south so that it will encourage exploration and development. I forget the numbers - it has been just about a year now - but that alone created millions of dollars in taxes for the federal government and it reduced the cost to future developers. We are working with people doing that.

In the Gwich'in area, Fort McPherson, through the Gwich'in Development Corporation, I know we negotiated all of our contracts with that company in McPherson, in Aklavik and some in Inuvik, too. A lot of houses went into that area and most of the capital projects that we negotiated with them so that those claimant groups can get the benefits. We even negotiated a certain percentage of contracts with the people in the Gwich'in area and the Gwich'in Development Corporation. We are doing what we can to enhance and encourage development in those regions. Like I said earlier, the government is not going to drive the economy. It is up to the private sector. It is very important and people realize that. The odd capital project here and there is not creating an economy. Real economy is created by the private sector. That is what I meant by that statement, so, Mr Krutko, do not be disappointed. I realize the small economic spin-offs of every capital job, but that is not a real economy. A real economy is driven by the private sector and it is long lasting. That is the economy we are looking at trying to develop. I think I have answered all your questions, and I have used up the clock. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 53

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. I recognize the clock and will rise and report progress.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 53

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The House will come back to order. We are on Item 20, Report of Committee of the Whole, Mr. Steen.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 53

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, your Committee has been considering Bill 1 and Minister's Statement 1-13(4), and would like to report that Bill 1 is ready for third reading. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the Committee of the Whole be concurred with.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Seconded by Mr. Picco. Mr. Steen, your motion is in order. To the motion.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Question has been called. All those in favour. All those opposed. The motion is carried.

--Carried

Item 21, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, orders of the day.

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Page 53

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of the Western Caucus immediately after adjournment today. At 9:00 tomorrow morning, of the Ordinary Members' Caucus. At 8:30 tomorrow morning, of the Standing Committee on Social Programs. Orders of the day for Friday, November 29, 1996:

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

6. Oral Questions

7. Written Questions

8. Returns to Written Questions

9. Replies to Opening Address

10. Petitions

11. Report of Standing and Special Committees

12. Reports of Committees in the Review of Bills

13. Tabling of Documents

14. Notices of Motion

15. Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills

16. Motions

17. First Reading of Bills: Bill 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.

18. Second Reading of Bills

19. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters: Ministers' Statements Nos. 1, 5 and 6; Tabled Documents Nos. 4 and 5

20. Report of Committee of the Whole

21. Third Reading of Bills: Bill 1

22. Orders of the Day

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until Friday, November 29, 1996 at 10:00 a.m.

Adjournment