Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We had touched earlier on the privatization of petroleum products. There is a possibility of cherry-picking if we get into the issue of privatization of petroleum services. The larger volume communities could go first and the government could be potentially left with a small number of communities which would really increase the cost of fuel delivery because there isn't the volume. Has the department looked at that possibility?

Mahsi. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I will ask the deputy minister to respond to that.

Mr. Lovely.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is a concern of ours as well because, in many ways, there is privatization going on out there right now in that we have contractors at the community level who deliver the fuel and bill the customers. So there is a level that has already occurred over the years because it makes better sense to have a local businessman doing that than to have the government handle it all. When we looked at the privatization of the entire POL division or PPD division, we realized that, in order for this to be a viable business enterprise, a company would need to be able to count on certain volumes in order for them to achieve a reasonable profit margin. We don't anticipate going out at this point with a call for expressions of interest to see what kind of interest we can generate in the business community for this opportunity. We would put it out as a package rather than as 44 separate communities where it might not be possible for a small local entrepreneur to generate the capital that would be needed to buy the tanks and the truck and the inventory. If that individual was a franchise operator associated with a larger company that had the whole contract, they would be in a lot better position to generate the capital they needed to get into the business.

We realize that that is a big concern and we know that unless we make it an attractive high-volume operation, it isn't likely to be of interest to too many people. We don't want to be left in a position where we have bits and pieces left over in the final analysis. We want to be out of the business because we think the private sector is at the point where they are mature enough to handle this at this stage. When we got into this in 1973, there was no one else to do it. That has changed.

Thank you. Mr. Henry.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess there are issues I want to ensure that the department looks at as they go down that road. Another area in that concern is let's look at the possibility that you get rid of 44 units, so the government isn't in petroleum services at this stage. What happens to the community that, for whatever reason, goes bankrupt or isn't able to perform the functions; what obligation will the government take on in that situation or what responsibility do you think they have?

Thank you. Mr. Lovely.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That would be a concern if we proceeded with a lot of independent contracts with individual entrepreneurs in communities. That's one of the reasons why we think it makes better sense to put this out as a package so that when that kind of situation occurs - and small business has a high incidence of failure across the country -- it's the large contractor who has responsibility for each of the community operations who would have to go and find a way to get another franchise operator so that services continue to be delivered, because that would part of the arrangement we would enter into.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a comment on that last one. I think it will definitely work if there is a large supplier doing a lot of communities. I think the government can alleviate that situation. I'm thinking of the situation of a community of 200 or 300 people, where an individual takes it on and is able to get the supplied product to the community but cannot get it disbursed within the community. I'm thinking of a small operator in a community, in that regard. I just bring this to your attention so that at least someone else has had a look at them for your future reference.

If I may go on to another part that was mentioned earlier about the privatization of computer services. Mr. Lovely has talked about some safeguards that he has built in. I would certainly encourage the Minister and the department to look at that a lot closer. I believe the Minister did state in the House that he would be having some people from outside of the department assist him, or at least look at the proposals as they were being prepared, because I would suggest to you that I could, for a contract that I have in place, for example, prepare tender documents that I could have you legitimately bidding extremely high on. Because I have inside information about it, I would be able to take that contract every single time. So I would encourage the department to ensure that they definitely get that input from the outside, and that private enterprise has the opportunity to look and truly understand what is being asked for, and that there isn't anything prepared ahead of time where it's not extremely clear what is being asked for.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I completely understand what the Member is saying. I did commit, in the House, to the Member that these areas of concern would be looked at. The privatization plan for computer services is nearly complete for my review. I will ensure that there's a section in there that deals with ensuring fairness to companies that may have a disadvantage because others may have inside information. I can say that we will go ahead in the coming weeks to get some input from the industry on this.

Thank you. Mr. Henry.

Do I understand from the Minister's last comments that, before this document is finalized, the private sector will have input into it?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, yes. We will ensure that they have input to the relevant sections of the privatization plan.

Thank you. I would remind the Members of the committee that we have general comments. Without seeming to take away the privilege of Members to speak to any item on the table, I would remind the Members and the Minister that when we ask questions we try to be as concise as possible. We have some items to go through. Thank you. Directorate, operations and maintenance. Mr. Roland.

Thank you. Mr. Evaloarjuk.

(Translation) Do we have a quorum here?

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Evaloarjuk. We'll ring the bells.

---Ringing of bells

Thank you. There was a question from Mr. Roland. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I'll just reply briefly. As I understand it, the government went into the garage and vehicle business back in the days when there weren't any in the communities. Over the years, the capacity has happened in the larger communities. There are private businesses now that run garages and that repair vehicles, at cetera. It's an area where the government shouldn't be competing with the local businesses.

With regard to savings, we do not have any statistics about savings of prior years. The way we're making sure that there's a savings in the privatization of garages through this business plan, through this budget, is that we are transferring to departments an amount of money that is less than what they had spent in previous years for vehicle maintenance.

Thank you. Directorate. Mr. Roland.