As I said to my honourable colleague, Mr. Steen, I will provide him with the full detailed briefing on how many cases we have dealt with in the last two years. I will include at that time, the request that Mr. Ootes asked. I do not have that information available. Thank you.
Debates of Jan. 29th, 1998
Topics
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 422
John Todd Keewatin Central
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ootes.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Could we be informed in the event of a suspicion of fraud, what is the process that the individuals or the department uses to follow?
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 422
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Todd.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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John Todd Keewatin Central
The process we follow is in the financial administration manual, Mr. Chairman, and we will provide you with a copy of that.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Total operations and maintenance. Mr. Ootes.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Does the government have any individuals that do investigative work for the government?
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 422
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Todd.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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John Todd Keewatin Central
Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is what our audit bureau does. Thank you.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 422
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Total operations and maintenance. I have Mr. Steen.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman. We have been informed here if a government official was in question or was presented with a court order to seize all the documents in his office, he is not required to report this to the Financial Management Board? I would wonder how he could still operate. In other words what would be his response to his superior when he had to account for all those missing papers? What would he tell his superior? I would think that there must be some requirement that an employee report to the Financial Management Board when the RCMP seizes all of the documents pertaining to certain cases.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 422
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Todd.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 422
John Todd Keewatin Central
I will ask Mr. Voytilla to provide clarity to that because perhaps his response was not fully understood. Thank you.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Voytilla.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Voytilla
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can understand the question that has arisen in Mr. Steen's mind. Obviously, if there were some significant inquiry or significant seizure of records that would give rise to some concerns on the part of
the government certainly, if such an event occurred, the individual who was most directly involved with the request from the RCMP or with the appropriation of documents would be obligated to inform his management and brief management on what occurred. We would hope that it would not engage in a lot of speculation about what might underlie it because that speculation is something that we would not want people to do. Usually the RCMP, if they are investigating and they are acquiring documents of that nature, they would be limited in the information that they share with the government. However, we would fully expect management to be apprised, and if the event was significant, then management would normally seek advice and counsel, probably both, from the Department of Justice, as well as from the office of the Comptroller General.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Steen. Thank you.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I come to the conclusion then, no documents could be seized by the RCMP pertaining to any department, whereby the Financial Management Board would not be aware of it. I would like to know what level of government employees, if this is not confidential information or interferes with any investigations, how far up the corporate ladder are we experiencing frauds and embezzlements?
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Voytilla.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Voytilla
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Anything of that nature would be significant enough to be called to the deputy minister's attention. In our organization and under our Financial Administration Act, the Comptroller General is given the responsibility and authority to deal with those situations. If there was a fraud investigation or whether there was some seizure that was of particular concern or signified that there might be a reason for concern, that would come to myself, as Comptroller General, and I am obligated under the Financial Administration Act to deal with it and act within certain parameters. That is the level in the organization at which these things are generally dealt with. At the deputy minister level, at the Comptroller General level, we would pursue the investigation to resolution. These things are not, in the normal course of events, brought to the political level, which is the Financial Management Board. They are dealt with under the authority in the act at the Comptroller General's level. However, once a year, I do provide a report called the Comptroller General's Report to the Financial Management Board which details all events that gave rise to fraud or embezzlement or any misappropriation funds.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Total operations and maintenance. Mr. Steen.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since the Financial Management Board is almost compelled to be made aware of any investigation being done by the RCMP of this government, would it then be fair to say that if documents were seized in the past year or so, this could not have happened without the knowledge of the Financial Management Board?
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Voytilla.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Voytilla
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think what I have tried to convey is there could be a situation where documents were seized, or obtained where that would not have been brought to the Comptroller General's attention. I would expect that in those circumstances, it would have made its way to the deputy minister of that department, but depending on the circumstances, may not have been reported in accordance to the financial administration manual to the Comptroller General because there was no suspicion of fraud or irregularity. In that way, there could be documents obtained that did not come to my attention.
I just reiterate, Mr. Chairman, when those events do come to my attention, I am obligated to deal with them in accordance with the Financial Administration Act, and that is not, in the normal course of events, taken to the Financial Management Board. So, I think Mr. Steen has made several references to the Financial Management Board being aware of that. It would be the staff officials who serve under the board, but the board itself would not be directly involved.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Steen.
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 423
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Voytilla directly then, was this government being investigated by the RCMP, whereby documents were being seized, and just specifically, which department did they apply to?