Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This signing authority, to me, refers only to the budget before us. I do not see how a Minister could sign off signing authority for future years. Especially down the road into two new governments. I do not see how that can be done, unless there is some documentation that we do not have before us. Additionally, the contract we are referring to is very specific and it states here, the contract is entered into or the obligation assumed in accordance with the direction of the Minister. Perhaps I could ask, did the deputy minister receive specific direction from the Minister to proceed with the contract? Last week he said no, but I do not see where he gets the authority to do this. Thank you.
Debates of Feb. 16th, 1998
Topics
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ootes did refer to in his initial question the term, subsequent years. Mr. Minister.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, again we are sliding back into the specific area where the deputy minister exercises full authority in negotiating the extension of an existing lease. It is not a new lease, it is not a new arrangement, therefore, he had the full authority to go ahead and exercise his full authority in this regard. Yes, we have signed over full authority to the deputy minister but, again, there are a lot of safeguards in place. In the future we go year by year in this government. We realize that the appropriations for this department have to be approved by this Legislative Assembly on a yearly basis. That is understood. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ootes.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are there any other written directions available to the deputy minister, other than this sheet that all Members have been given, with respect to signing authority, with respect to leases that are signed, with respect to directions that the deputy minister is given on contracts?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
February 15th, 1998
Page 821
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as far as I know this is the only document that is there. However, I would like to ask the deputy minister for more clarification. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Lovely.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 821
Lovely
Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to try to interpret the Financial Administration Act because the Minister of Finance
has the responsibility for doing that, but the signing authority spreadsheet that we are referring to here, is a document that really flows from a number of different rules and regulations. It starts with the Financial Administration Act and is outlined in some detail in the Financial Administration Manual. Those directives, in the Financial Administration Manual, provide the details under which delegation may occur. Those directives are 802-1(11), 813, 815, 820-1 and 850. Ministers are empowered to delegate authority to their deputy ministers under the authority of those directives. When we read that section of the Financial Administration Manual, the interpretation is the Minister has provided direction by delegating to the deputy minister the authority to enter into contracts and leases under the regulations. The written directions or the directions that are provided to him are the rules and regulations.
There is no choice but to enter into multi-year contracts whether they are leases or contracts for things like petroleum products. It is not possible to get a reasonable financial arrangement on a lease unless you enter into a lease of five to ten years. Landlords are not prone to enter into shorter-term leases because of a lack of security. They are more likely to get out into the marketplace to locate a tenant who is prepared to sign on for a longer period of time. With the petroleum products contracts that we sign, we cannot get the right price for petroleum products unless we are prepared to commit to a supplier that we will enter into an arrangement with him for three to five years. Those contracts are typically worth $150 to $200 million. The deputy minister signs off on those contracts. The one stipulation that is in every one of those contracts is expenditure which is subject to appropriation by the Legislative Assembly each year. If those appropriations are not approved by the Legislative Assembly, then the contract is null and void. We would be subject to legal action if we were not able to fulfil our commitments, but there is a stipulation in the contract to that effect. I would suggest, if there is a need for a more detailed interpretation of the Financial Administration Act, it would probably be better for Finance to provide it. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ootes.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can appreciate what the deputy minister is saying. There needs to be a mechanism to enter into long-term contracts to handle leases. I find it, quite frankly, totally irresponsible for Cabinet to sign off their responsibility on multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts and not to take the responsibility. That is, to me, absolutely astounding. The reality, Mr. Chairman, it is true, there is a clause out within contracts that are signed, but it does leave this government open to legal action if those contracts are not adhered to.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. There was no question unless Mr. Minister wishes to respond. Mr. Minister.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as the Minister of Public Works and Services, I take full responsibility for the actions of this department including the deputy minister, since I have signed over the full authority to the deputy ministers. It is a direction we took when we started in this government two years ago in the agenda for change, where we wanted to streamline operations and make it more effective and efficient for this government to operate. There are a lot of safeguards we have to adhere to. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. We are on directorate, operations and maintenance, total operations and maintenance, $8.839 million. Agreed? Mr. Krutko.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regard to the activities of the superintendent or deputy minister and the effect it may have politically, in regard to being a political embarrassment to this government, such as the one we find ourselves in now, is there any process in place if something as controversial as issues politically sensitive to this government, where there are steps that have to be followed to ensure all bases are covered, that different departments are aware this is politically sensitive? Either because there is going to be a political backlash in the way the lease was let go or anything that was done by particular superintendents or deputy ministers? In light of where we find ourselves, is there such an avenue in place to ensure there is a process we follow, that if we know something is sensitive, such as the issue at hand, the Lahm Ridge Tower deal, where it is in the papers every day of the week? Maybe someone made a mistake. Before it becomes mud on all our faces, we know there is a process that should have been followed because it was going to be a sensitive issue. The deputy minister stated he knew there were going to be political implications regarding the decision that was going to be made. It is a politically sensitive issue. Is there such a process in place that we do not find ourselves being called a banana republic or whatever? Is there an appeal process or a challenge that can be made?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 822
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the honourable Member is making reference to one specific transaction this government has made. This department has done many different contracts and lease arrangements throughout the whole Northwest Territories and has been doing so for many years. Personally, I do not think it is a political embarrassment, as far as I know, because I have been studying this particular case ever since I became Minister of Public Works and Services. I am assured, in talking to the deputy minister and his staff about how this particular lease was handled, as far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, it was done in a very businesslike manner. The department followed all the different requirements they had to. They even had legal advice.
At the time the decision was made to renegotiate the existing lease and at the same time, immediately after that, this business was sold, and the former owners walked away from the table when they moved back down south with a substantial profit, as I understand. At the same time, it was unknown this particular deal would have attracted so many questions by the media, as well as, in this House. It was unknown at the time when they were negotiating, this was going to happen. It is hard to say in hindsight, what should have been done.
The leases have been renegotiated and they are legal documents. They are in place right now. I am trying to answer all the questions on this particular case in question period and during this budget. It was a good business deal. I have said it time and time again. I even provided documents. However, if it is a politically sensitive case, how do we handle it? How are we going to handle it? If we were to do it again, I would say that the department would be instructed to try to get the best deal for this government and it probably would have gone the same way it did. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. In the book of Parliamentary terms, the word, irresponsible, is determined to be unparliamentary. I would remind Members not to use that term again in this quorum. Mr. Krutko.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the whole area of issues that have happened over the year, in regard to this department, you talk about the Keewatin resupply project, that was a political embarrassment. At the end, it was shot down at a cost of some $250,000 to study the thing. All this takes money. You talk about issues such as housing for the Premier, the Ministers, in which there, again, are another political issue. Then, we come down to the selling off of assets, houses and of this government. There again, we are reacting to one issue after another. The reason I ask the question is not because I want to embarrass anybody, but to say, there has to be more accountability put in place. There has to be checks and balances in place to ensure these issues are dealt with before taking some sort of a survey, knowing that these issues are going to be sensitive. We have to look at it, on the one hand we are cutting off peoples' subsidies, grants and communities not having the adequate funding to deal with their water and sewer subsidies. Yet we are still able to dish out $12 million leases. We give people long-term leases on houses. Yet, we are trying to sell ours off. We have all this vacant office space. It is one thing after the other. The reason I ask the question is, there has to be a process in place to make people who make these decisions accountable, not only to this House, but to the people, the taxpayers out there paying these bills. I would like to know if there is anything in place, or this department is doing, where we find ourselves, in regard to all of these matters I have raised here, are there any new guidelines going to be put in place to ensure this does not happen again?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as a Minister, I work closely with the deputy ministers and their staff on different initiatives. If we feel the deputy minister is not being accountable and if there are problems in the way they do their work, we, as Ministers, have the authority to deal with them in a disciplinary manner. When the honourable Member talks about if there are going to be new guidelines, you have to deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Some of the initiatives he mentioned, Keewatin resupply ran its course and now we have taken direction and it is not going to go ahead. There are some initiatives that have been initiated by this government which is no longer there. The sales of assets and so forth, there are a lot of initiatives this government has taken to change the way we do business. Whenever there is change, there are always a lot of unanticipated problems that come with it, that are not foreseen. We try to deal with them as they arise. The main concern here is more accountability, knowing what issues are coming up and how they get dealt with. When this government or department is doing its work, they are involved in situations where a lot of decisions have to get made. The deputy ministers do their work and whenever they run into any problems, we try to deal with it. If there are problems, it comes to the Ministers and we try to deal with it. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The process has allowed us to review page 5-6, activity summary, directorate. Every Member is given an opportunity to review, debate and this page was concluded. I recognize two Members whom I will not recognize again on this page. I will give them every opportunity to speak to any other pages or activity subsequent of this page, but I will however, ask other Members who have not spoken to this yet, for the last time, if you wish to speak to item Directorate, total operations and maintenance, $8.839 million. Do we agree?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. We will move to page 5-7, Project Management. I would like to recognize Mr. Steen at this time. Project management.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 823
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my question is in regard to negotiated contracts, RFPs, sole-sourced. I would like to know if the department has a record of how many negotiated contracts they successfully negotiated this year.