Agreed.

Thank you, Proceed. For the record, Mr. Ng, would you please introduce the witnesses to the committee? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my right, Mr. David Ramsden, deputy minister, to my left, Mr. Warren St. Germaine, director of financial management services.

Thank you. Mr. Ramsden and Mr. St. Germaine, welcome to the committee. On the list I have Mr. Steen and Mr. Ootes. Mr. Steen. We are considering Health and Social Services on page 6-10 of 1998-99 main estimates, activity summary, community health programs, total operations and maintenance, $27.437 million. Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that the same pay and benefits package goes over with the transfers. Of course, the municipalities are obliged to offer reasonable pay and benefits because they have all the funds that would have been provided by the GNWT to those employees. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Steen.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, when the government first undertook the community transfers and community empowerment, there were discussions with the Union of Northern Workers that represented a majority of the employees. There is an understanding that employees who transferred over get at least comparable pay and benefits. Municipalities, of course, do have the option of providing more and in some cases they do, but certainly it is nothing less then expected that an employee would receive as a matter of transferring over.

Thank you, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I do not dispute the comments made by the honourable Member in respect to SAOs being placed in a difficult position as a result of a lot of increased responsibilities. He is correct. A lot of municipalities have chosen to take on a lot of problems that have really expanded the responsibilities of the SAO and some of the senior management at the municipal level. I cannot speak directly to it with Municipal and Community Affairs, I know they have a community empowerment development fund that is particularly used for those types of situations, in trying to beef up some of the expertise at a municipal level, management level and a council level as they assume so more of these responsibilities.

On the specific issue on recruitment and hiring retention of health care professionals, social workers and nurses, the honourable Member refers to, we do recognize that it cannot be done on a community-by-community basis. There are no economies of scale there. Even right now, we find in our recruitment and retention plan that even on a regional-by-regional basis, there is not a lot of sense in all the boards competing with each other for those same resources. It makes a lot more sense to do it on a larger scale, a territorial scale in trying to provide uniform standards, first of all, pay rates and benefits so that there is not that competition between communities and between boards, where you have some economies of having one central individual or agency providing the broader recruitment for all communities and regions, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Member for his comments.

Thank you. Mr. Steen.

Thank you. Since the western Caucus will be meeting at noon, I will allow the Minister to respond to Mr. Steen and then we will take a lunch break. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, certainly, that would be the case, the monitoring evaluation unit that we have within the department. Of course, we would go through the boards, as we deal primarily with the boards, but the accountability of the boards and the communities that they represent, of course, there would be a relationship between the boards, the communities and the services that are being provided because you have to recognize there is going be coordination and some support from the board level, never mind the departmental level, to the communities, first hand in respect to provision of services. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. St. Germaine, Mr. Ramsden and Mr. Minister. We will break for lunch.

--Break

I would like to call the committee back to order. We are on page 6-10 of the 1998-99 main estimates. We are dealing with Health and Social Services. The activity is community health programs. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in respect to the issue the honourable Member raises about school enrolments, of course, the Department of Education does ongoing reviews with the boards on their enrolment numbers. They make proportionate redistribution of existing funds based on past year school enrolments. I understand the Minister of Education will be able to speak more to that detail when he comes.

We do not have that type of flexibility or mechanism within the Department of Health and Social Services. We do recognize there is a lot of excellent work and support provided by a lot of non-profit community groups and agencies that operate services on behalf of those requiring assistance, particularly, here in Yellowknife. Yellowknife is fortunate. The honourable Member does make a good point that there are people who come to Yellowknife for various reasons and end up staying here, whether on a short-term or extended basis.

There are a lot more support mechanisms and groups in Yellowknife, certainly than there are in other communities in the Northwest Territories. It is unfortunate, but in a lot of our communities, some do not even have family violence shelters, if you use that as an example. It is a result of not having adequate resources or the support mechanisms that generate those types of resources. It is an issue that we are aware of. It is a difficult one to deal with, in respect of when we have limited resources, existing programs that we have to support. There is no new money to address this need. If there are requirements that require financial resources, it is a matter of where anyone would suggest that we reallocate resources to address immediate needs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.