I call the committee to order. We are reviewing the Main Estimates. I would like to ask what direction the committee would like to take? Mr. Erasmus.
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In the Legislative Assembly on April 21st, 1999. See this topic in context.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to do consideration of Bill 17 and Committee Report 1-13(7) at the same time and then continue with FMBS and then proceed to Aboriginal Affairs after a short break.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
--Break
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The Chair David Krutko
I would like to call the committee to order. We are dealing with the Financial Management Board Secretariat. At this time I would like to ask the Minister if he would like to call his witnesses?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witnesses in. Mr. Minister, would you like to introduce your witness?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my right I have the Secretary to the Financial Management Board, Mr. Lew Voytilla.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. We are dealing with the Financial Management Board Secretariat. Mr. Ootes.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have some general questions. With division, there was a time leading up to division when we did a lot of work in relationship to negotiating the division of assets of the NWT Power Corporation and the Workers' Compensation Board and a question that I have, also in the area of handling the issue of division we had incremental costs to do this, has this government ever addressed those incremental costs with the federal government in order to accomplish division?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that issue has been addressed with the federal government and I must regretfully inform the committee that we were unsuccessful at convincing them to reimburse us for any costs.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
If I recall there were substantial costs incurred. I wonder if the Minister could tell us if he has some indication of what the incremental costs might have been?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is referring to, for instance, the time the deputies and other staff would spend on this issue. It was tracked for a period of two or more years, but when it became clear that the federal government was absolutely refusing to even consider the issue for the last year or so, those costs were not tracked. We could certainly provide the committee with the information that we had up to the point that the tracking ceased.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess this is somewhat disturbing in that the federal government has been supportive of the creation of Nunavut and certainly spent a lot of money in the celebrations. We in the west and this government had to, at that particular time, absorb the cost of division which affected all programs throughout the Northwest Territories, including Nunavut at that time. Let me give you an example. If the incremental costs were $500,000, then legitimately we had to reduce our program funding by $500,000 somewhere that we could have devoted to our education programs and health and social services. I wonder if the Minister could tell us, is there an opportunity to readdress this with the federal government?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This argument has been advanced time and time again with the federal government, and it has been resolute in refusing to consider addressing that issue. It has been attempted repeatedly.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Do we take the attitude of rollover and be dead or do we take the attitude of saying what is fair? After all, I think we did our part and Nunavut did its part. The federal government has certainly been very generous, no doubt in this situation, to create the new territory, but has it been fair to the Western Territory? I realize that this money at the time was for both territories, but you know we get affected by it. We are into a new fiscal year, we do have a new Finance Minister and I have a lot of confidence in him and I think if he were to address this situation again with Minister Stewart or Minister Martin, on the federal level, I am confident that he can be very persuasive with these two individuals. He is usually very persuasive with us here in the House. I am wondering if he can take the opportunity to somehow find some kind of loophole that would address this? Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Member's comments about my persuasiveness. I will keep them in mind the next time he is after me for not living up to his expectations on some other matter. I wish that I could say there was some loophole that we could access, but all that we have to appeal to the federal government is the basis that there is a moral responsibility for them to reimburse us for the costs that we have incurred in this area. I would say that given that the expenditures are past history and the federal government is now saying this government managed it is a moot question at this point, I believe we would be seen as doing nothing more than whining if we persisted in pursuing the issue.
I would say that knowing I will have to approach the federal government to re-examine our fiscal relationship with them, it would be better to bite our tongues on this one and pursue this much more important change we need to see in our relationship with the federal government. I agree it is regrettable that we have had to incur these costs without reimbursement, but you have to choose your fights. The fight that I addressed in the budget speech is one that is more important for us to undertake at this point. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly respect the Minister's comments of pick the fights and pick the fights that we can win. There is no question that that is the way to approach it. I will take that advice to heart, certainly that the Minister may very well have a very good point in that.
On another matter, Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Minister was kind enough to give me a letter on the Aurora Fund and it is very explanatory. First of all, it is good information and I am very appreciative and I am very glad to see the Minister respond quickly to this issue. I appreciate the more open approach and the attitude towards it. It really helps us because it had been a bit of a question how much information could be supplied. I think the Minister is working on that. Could the Minister tell me, the letter that he has supplied, is that available for me to distribute to the other Members?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is welcome to distribute that letter to other Members. For that matter, if this committee would like, I would be happy to have copies prepared by my office and sent to all Members of the committee.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Minister. That would be appreciated by all Members. Mr. Ootes.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, I just have only two or three quick questions left on the Aurora Fund. Could the Minister tell us, I believe there is an investment advisor and fund manager. Is he paid a commission on the total amount of the money raised or the total amount of money loaned?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could I ask that Mr. Voytilla answer this question as it is a little more detailed than my understanding right now?
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Voytilla
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The way that the fund manager is enumerated is laid out in the operating memorandums. Both funds, of course, had very detailed operating memorandums associated with them. They had to receive the federal government's approval. Those lay out the percentages that are paid to the fund managers for the functions they perform.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some questions of the liability of this government, which has diminished somewhat on the pay equity issue. I believe the Minister informed the House of an overwhelming number of government employees who were entitled to financial compensation under the pay equity issue that they have paid 80 percent of that out. Could the Minister advise this House as to the amount of the liability that is still the responsibility of the present Government of the Northwest Territories?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We estimate that 80 percent of the dollar value of the liability has been dealt with by the accepted offers.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, 80 percent of the money that the GNWT set aside has been accepted by the members of the public service that were entitled under the pay equity. Does the Minister have the numbers or percentages of employees that at least from the government's perspective, have been paid out? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can provide both to Members of the committee. There is approximately $6 million that is still outstanding, with over $20 million having been accepted by employees.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Still within the pay equity situation, has the department or has the Government of the Northwest Territories dealt with concerns raised by excluded employees and the pay equity issue as it involves them? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we have agreed to offer excluded employees the same offer as was made to unionized employees. There are some employee classifications which still have not been reviewed, so those offers cannot be made as yet. I have been advised that by the end of May, all of the employee classifications will have been reviewed and offers will then be sent to all those excluded employees that have not yet received them.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that is very forthright of the government to do that and I congratulate them for that. I think there was some question earlier on that maybe excluded employees would not have been included in this pay equity resolution issue, so I congratulate the Minister and the government for acting on the excluded employees' concerns. Can the Minister tell us if any further action on the part of the Government of Northwest Territories will take place, if any further action will take place on trying to resolve the issue with the outstanding employees who may not have up, until March 31st, accepted the Government of the Northwest Territories offer? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we will be attempting to negotiate an agreement with the Government of Nunavut to extend the offer. We are hoping to have an answer within the next ten days or so and then perhaps we will be able to continue the program.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
No question on that, Mr. Chairman, thank you. I believe the Minister had mentioned that there is still $6 million outstanding. Is that $6 million the government's estimate of the amount of money that it would take to resolve the pay equity issue for both Nunavut and the Government of the Northwest Territories? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the Report from the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Infrastructure, under Informatics there is an indication that the committee Members were concerned about Year 2000 compliance for government-wide systems, particularly those systems that manage and operate essential services such as power and fire suppression. Apparently the department assured the committee that a government-wide review was being undertaken to ensure Year 2000 compliance. Could the Minister indicate what has shown up from this review, are we safe, are we going to shut down January 1st?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can say that all departments and the government as a whole are making good progress in ensuring that our systems are Year 2000 compliant and we will have everything in hand to ensure that systems do not fail. In fact, I am preparing to table a substantial document, hopefully next week, which will outline the state of affairs in government departments and the plans that are in place to ensure that everyone can be Year 2000 compliant. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How did the Minister propose to deal with his report? There are side conversations here and it is kind of hard to hear. Did he say he was going to table it or he was going to give us a briefing or how would he propose to distribute that information to the rest of the MLAs?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was planning to table the report next week. I would be happy to arrange a briefing for the Members of this committee if they are interested, to go through the details of the report and offer an opportunity for questions.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Voytilla provided a short answer to the question I had and I wonder if I could just pursue that for a moment. The Aurora Fund had a firm that, I believe it was Cornwallis Financial Corporation, they used to do the selling and marketing of the fund. I wonder if Mr. Voytilla can tell us if there is an ongoing cost of administering the fund? I do, while there are no employees, I do understand there is a fund manager and an investment, sorry it is called an investment advisor and fund manager. Could you tell us if there is a cost factor involved in that and how much approximately would that be?
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Voytilla
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the Member pointed out, there are a number of cost components to the fund. The first one is, you have to pay somebody to market the notes and that is a cost of about $15,000 per note that we pay to our sales representatives. That was what we would have payed to Cornwallis Financial. Then once we get the funds in there is a whole bunch of other things that have to happen. First the funds go into an escrow account. They are held in trust and you have to pay a certain amount to your escrow account manager and in the case of the first fund it is the Bank of Montreal and it is the Pacific Western Limited on the second fund. Then once you are ready to convert those to notes, to finalize notes, then you get the actual $250,000 from every investor, you have to take it out of escrow account and put into an investment run by a Canadian investment manager. They hold their liquid assets for you until you are ready to lend them. There is a fee for that firm, as well, and in the two cases of the funds it is Arctic Financial Corporation that is paid a fee. That fee is usually based on a percentage of the funds that they hold or they transact.
Once you are ready to actually lend the money, then there are a number of other costs that are incurred. The first cost is a cost of receiving the loans, analyzing the loans, negotiating with the potential borrower and there is a fee, a flat fee, paid to the NWT investments manager to conduct that activity. Once the loan is issued, then there is an administrative workload associated with receiving the payments on the loans, making sure that the proper reporting is done to the federal government and to the board members themselves and, there is a fee paid to the NWT investments manager for that ongoing maintenance and management function and that is a percentage of the loans issued.
All of those costs are costs of administering the fund. We also, of course, as a company we have to have an audit, there is an audit fee every year. We have to have legal counsel involved in transacting many of these activities because, of course, they are very complex, so there is a local law firm, Gullberg, Weist and MacPherson, that do that for the funds and there is a fee that is paid to them for that.
There are a number of fees. The good thing is, of course, the fund is self-sustaining in that the interest proceeds from the lending covers all of those costs. Those costs have to be set in a way that allows the fund to recover them, but still be able to offer interest rates that are attractive to borrowers. There is quite an amount of, I call it self-discipline or tightness, in how much those fees are because if you have them too excessive you will not be able to lend at rates that are attractive. That is perhaps a long answer, but it lays out all of the various cost components involved in administering the fund on an ongoing basis.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
I appreciate that information and obviously, I presume this all comes out of the fund, that there is a component there to cover the cost and so forth. Could the Minister tell me if those individuals or the companies that were involved, have they all been involved in the approval process of the loans that have been made? For instance, the fund auditors, fund counsel, the investment advisor and fund manager, all been involved in each of the loans that have been approved?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am advised that in conjunction with the Loans Committee, the NWT investment advisor and fund manager would be involved.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Is the Minister saying that he was involved, the investment advisor was involved in all of the loans?
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. What is the wish of the committee?
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Some Hon. Members
Clause by clause.
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The Chair David Krutko
Clause by clause. I believe we are on page 2-35. We are dealing with the Financial Management Board Secretariat. Page 2-35, operations and maintenance. Directorate. Operations and maintenance, page 2-35. We are dealing with the directorate. Operations and maintenance, $5.176 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 2-39, labour relations and compensation services. Operations and maintenance, $3.786 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 2-41, government accounting. Operations and maintenance, $7.177 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 2-43, government accounting, grants and contributions. Contributions, $4.082 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 2-45, budgeting and evaluation, operations and maintenance, $1.116 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Details work performed on behalf of others. Total department, $600,000. Mr. Henry.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this charge back, this is just the department's amount, this is not the overall government? I should ask the question, is this $600,000 just the department's charge back to Nunavut? That will be the question, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are doing the payroll function. We will charge them for performing that function over the course of the year.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe I saw that this was to do with the payroll function, but I believe I saw other components of work that the department was performing on behalf of Nunavut. Could the Minister comment on that? Does he have an amount for the total department charge back to Nunavut?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The secretariat is performing only this function for Nunavut.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Any comments regarding detailed work performed on behalf of others. Total budget, total department, $600,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 2-33, program summary. Financial Management Board Secretariat, program summary. Operations and maintenance. Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure if this
is the place to ask, but one of the activity descriptions is self-government and I know that we had put some more money into self-government to make things more efficient and move things along a little faster. I was wondering if this move had actually resulted in self-government negotiations moving faster than they were prior to us putting money into it.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I cannot answer that question. Certainly staff from FMBS have participated at the tables and provided financial analysis and advice, we hope that has helped. I cannot say whether or not it speeded up the process.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If the Minister is not qualified to answer that, who is?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would suggest that the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs would be the person to answer that question.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
Mr. Chairman, I found the particular amount I was looking at, I would appreciate an explanation from the Minister. He had talked about the $600,000 charge back for work performed on behalf of Nunavut. On the next page, under Revenues, Recoveries and Transfer Payments, there is a Nunavut computer system charge back of $2.2 million. Could the Minister give me some explanation or clarification of what that amount is in relation to the $600,000? Thank you.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That amount is a government-wide figure. Because we were responsible for coordinating all of the system's charge backs, it is listed here, but it is not all relative to this department. The amount is for every department of government.
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South
For greater clarification, the $2.2 million is that the total amount that we can expect in this present fiscal year to be receiving from Nunavut for all services that we provide? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, this amount refers only to computer systems charge backs. There are many more contracts with Nunavut for much more than $2.2 million. This amount refers just to computers.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On that same page 2-50, which we are kind enough to go back to for Mr. Henry, there is an indication that we require $4,000 to handle NSF cheques. I hope those are not our cheques. Could we get an explanation of that please?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members will note that this is a page that lists revenues, so that is $4,000 in revenues that we see. That results from the $25 handling fee that the government charges every time we receive a cheque which is NSF.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Minister. At this time, I would like to recognize the Mayor from Inuvik, George Roach and Councillor Don Greg. Welcome to the Legislature.
--Applause
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The Chair David Krutko
If that is the end of the questions, I would like to go back to page 233, operations and maintenance, program summary, $18.468 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
That completes the Financial Management Board Secretariat. I would like to thank the Minister and his witness. Mrs. Groenewegen.
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Jane Groenewegen Hay River
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are the P3 initiatives covered under FMBS, or will that come up later on? Did we miss that?
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The Chair David Krutko
I would like to welcome the Minister and his witness back to the table. Could you clarify that point of P3, where does it fall within your mandate?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Financial Management Board Secretariat does the overall coordination for P3 projects within the government, but Members will find, in each department, an entry noting P3 initiatives within their budgets. Each departmental budget will contain the amounts for each specific project.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Minister. That is the end of the comments on Financial Management Board. I would like to thank the Minister and his witness. What is the decision of the committee? To move to Aboriginal Affairs, which is, I
would like to recognize the Minister in charge of Aboriginal Affairs. Mr. Antoine, do you have any opening comments?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present today the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs Budget as proposed in the 1999-2000 Main Estimates. Aboriginal Affairs is a small unit within the government, tasked with the responsibility for representing the government in land claims and self-government negotiations and in assisting our efforts to promote the political development of the Northwest Territories. To ensure the interests of government and residents are presented in these important negotiations, adequate resources must be dedicated to this task.
Over the last few years, the workload has increased as more negotiations have proceeded. The ministry has been restructured to do its work more efficiently and has recently added six new positions. Based on the current workload of Aboriginal Affairs, we are proposing a budget of $3.698 million representing 31 positions. The ministry has no capital budget and does not generate any revenue. Mr. Chairman, I can only reiterate, that as I have done in past years, the crucial and important nature of the work of Aboriginal Affairs in the further development of the Northwest Territories. I believe this budget will allow us to do so in an effective and efficient manner. Mahsi, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Antoine. I am going to ask Mr. Ootes if he would please deliver the committee's overview of the budget. Mr. Ootes.
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Yes, I would like to present the Report of the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Infrastructure on the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs. General comments. The mandate of the ministry is to protect, develop and promote the interests of the territorial government and the residents of the Northwest Territories in the negotiation and implementation of land claims, self-government and treaty entitlement agreements and in the political and constitutional development of the western Northwest Territories; and to develop and maintain mutually beneficial working relations with the Aboriginal leadership.
The Standing Committee on Resource Management and Infrastructure met on November 24, 1998, to review the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs' 1999-2002 Business Plan. Committee Members reviewed the Ministry's draft 1999-2000 Main Estimates on March 25, 1999. During both reviews, the committee noted that the creation of two new territories, issues of western governance, ongoing land claims negotiations, self-government and major demographic shifts have contributed and will likely continue to press the operating parameters of the ministry. The committee noted during their review of the Ministry's draft 1999-2000 Main Estimate a $53,000, or a 1.41 percentage, projected decrease in operations and maintenance expenditures for the ministry from its 1999-2002 Business Plan.
Committee Members concluded that the Ministry's projected decline in expenditures would likely negatively affect the government's ongoing attempts to incorporate the interests of stakeholders and residents in the ongoing and complex aboriginal and territorial political process.
Representation: A Balanced Approach.
The committee expressed concern during the review of the business plan that the government's approach to the resolution of land claim, treaty entitlement and self-government issues may not be fully balanced, ensuring representation for all residents of the Northwest Territories. Committee Members agreed that it is essential that a strong central government be espoused at all negotiation tables.
Operational Audit.
The committee in its review of the Minister's opening remarks from the review of the business plans noted that an operational audit was recently performed on the ministry. The committee looks forward to receiving a briefing of the operational audit that was recently performed on the ministry, subject to Cabinet protocols concerning the release of selected documents.
Status of Claims.
Committee Members continue to be concerned regarding the status of land claims in the Northwest Territories. During discussions with the Minister, Members requested an update of the progress on each claim to date.
That concludes the Report on Aboriginal Affairs, Madam Chairperson.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Ootes. At this time I will ask the Minister if he would like to bring witnesses from his department. Thank you, Mr. Antoine. The Minister would like to bring witnesses. Does the committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Sergeant-at-Arms, would you please bring in the witnesses? Mr. Antoine, could you please introduce the witnesses for the record?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. With me is Mr. Charles Overvold, to my left, Deputy Minister of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs, and we have Ms. Veronica Puskas, she is the senior financial and administration advisor. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Minister Antoine. Aboriginal Affairs. Are there any general comments? Mr. Krutko.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. With regard to the status of land claims and the negotiation process. In last year's budget there was an increase in allocation of funds so that we could fill positions within the Department of Aboriginal Affairs to speed up negotiations with regard to the different claimant groups who are presently negotiating because of the workload on the individuals who were working, along with the number of claims that have started in which you have got the self-government negotiation process and the land claims process. There was a treaty entitlement process, so I would like to ask the Premier exactly what has happened in light of the increase in those positions? Do they find that they are making more progress or have the negotiations been pretty consistent, which were moving at the same pace? Can the Premier tell us if that influx of funds and the number of increased positions in the Aboriginal Affairs portfolio has helped move these negotiations along and where are all these negotiations today?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, last year there was approval through the Legislative Assembly to increase the resources to the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs, and it was greatly appreciated because the ministry at that time had limited resources and very few staff to deal with the number of negotiations going on at the same time. With the additional resources and we have gone through a hiring process, we have added more positions and the negotiations are a lot better. It did not necessarily speed up the process, but it certainly made the job a lot easier. Everybody that is involved in the negotiations are working very hard. There are a number of processes that are going on and we have been participating fully at all these different negotiations that have been going on in the last little while, but certainly the resources are fully utilized to enhance our position at these negotiating tables. Thank you.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The other part of my question was in regard to the progress of these negotiations and what state they are at. Are they close to completion or are they at the AIP stage or are they, with regard to the self-government agreements, pretty close to being finalized? With regard to some, can the Premier tell me exactly what stage are all these negotiations today?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to ask the deputy minister, Mr. Charles Overvold, to reply to that question.
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Overvold
Could I just add to the first part of his question? Part of the problem we were having in negotiations is not enough depth to our negotiating team. We were having problems keeping up with the negotiations because both the federal and the aboriginal teams were very well resourced. They usually brought a team of five or six and from the territorial government we had one negotiator from Aboriginal Affairs and we would bring along a justice lawyer and maybe somebody from one of the departments that might be affected by that specific negotiation session. What we needed was more ability, more depth to our team, so we hired some assistant negotiators and that got us at least two people. We also hired some policy people so we could better prepare for sessions.
In terms of where we are at with negotiations in the Northwest Territories, the Beaufotr-Delta negotiations have been ongoing now for a couple of years. They are hoping to get an agreement in principle by this September. The Dogrib negotiations, as well, are fairly well advanced. There is a session coming up next week in Ottawa and the hope there is that we can come to an agreement in principle at the end of that session. There are some fairly major issues that have to be resolved, but we are very close. We are also negotiating with Salt River First Nation and a new band that was split off from Salt River, the Smith Landing Band in northern Alberta. Because of the split they have been putting a lot of emphasis on getting the northern Alberta band in Smith Landing up and running and what they have been trying to do with Salt River and the rest of Treaty 8 in the South Slave region and the Metis is to see if we can rationalize one process rather than negotiating with the Metis, negotiating with Salt River and negotiating with Treaty 8. See if we can get the groups together and develop one process. We are in a bit of flux in that one.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. One of the things I have seen in the last number of years is the whole idea of implementation of the land claim agreements that have been negotiated to date, the Inuvialuit with their agreement, the IFA, you have the Gwich'in and the Sahtu land claim agreements, but there seems to be a lot of problems in regards to implementing these agreements and understanding the different sections of those agreements. You have heard a lot of questions about the whole area of economic measures regarding the participation agreements in the Inuvialuit agreement. From the department's perspective, why is it that there seems to be such a problem regarding the interpretation of these agreements?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Madam Chairperson, I would like to defer to the deputy minister for a more detailed answer to that question. Thank you.
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Overvold
Thank you. The economic measures chapter of the Gwich'in and the Sahtu agreements. There are only broad commitments to implement some broad principles in our economic development programs and strategies in legislation. It is very difficult to determine, you know, exactly what should be done. We did come to an agreement between Canada and the territorial government and the Gwich'in and with the Sahtu for their claim on an implementation plan for those chapters and we think we are living up to the implementation plan we agreed to. However, there are some disagreements. I think the aboriginal groups feel we are not doing enough and I believe we have made a commitment to sit down with you and see if we can work out those kinds of problems.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regards to, I use an example, there is presently an economic review with regards to economic programs and services in the Western Territory which was carried out, but in the Gwich'in land claim and Sahtu land claim agreement there is a section that relates to economic measures which clearly states that they shall be involved in any change of programs and services within the Government of the Northwest Territories or federal programs relating to economic opportunities or programs and services.
Why is it that the aboriginal groups were not involved in that review or the changes that are being made in this government to consider looking at new programs and services for economic measures?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, there is no economic review that has been done. The only one that I know of is that there is an economic strategy that Mr. Kakfwi has taken a lead role in and it has not been done. We are just starting to get into it. It is a consultation process that he is starting on. Certainly everybody is going to be included. If there are provisions in certain land claims agreements that states that people will have to be consulted certainly we will do that. Everybody is going to be consulted through the economic strategy that Mr. Kakfwi is implementing and starting to consult with the people now. Thank you.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regards to the government programs and services where we seem to have a question about the constitutional reality of land claims and treaty rights, the question that we have now on the whole area of boundaries commissions, where now we are going to court. Does the department have a constitutional lawyer in-house or on hand to give us a fair representation in regard to what the legality of this department is to protect aboriginal rights in the Western Territory?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, we do not have an in-house lawyer per se within the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs. We have a Department of Justice that provides the lawyers and that is who we utilize. On occasion we do utilize certain individuals that have expertise in constitutional affairs. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Antoine. I believe that Mr. Krutko's ten minutes for general comments are up. I have Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I too am quite interested in the progress of the land claims to date. Unfortunately, I did not quite hear the comments on exactly how far along the Dogrib land claim is. Could we get another explanation of how far along they are in their land claims?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you. The Dogrib Treaty 11 negotiation process is going along. About three weeks ago there was a session in Vancouver where treaty government tabled a chapter on self-government. We have progressed quite a ways along. There is another session that is slated, a negotiations session that is slated to happen next week in Ottawa. At this session, we were told they would like to cover all the major issues, hopefully, at that session. There is pressure by the Dogrib Treaty 11 to have an agreement-in-principle before the spring because they are saying that they wanted to bring something to their assembly this summer. There is a push on the part of the Dogrib to try to compromise and move along substantially at this negotiation session in Ottawa next week.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, some time ago I had made a statement in this House that the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, who are in the Yellowknife North constituency, had a problem with the boundaries that are involved in the Dogrib Treaty 11 land claim, and that in fact the Dogrib Treaty 11 land claim boundary went so far that the communities of Detah and Ndilo actually are within the Dogrib Treaty 11 claimant area. When that area was instituted, it said on the maps that it was for the purposes of interim protection and to this date I do not think that area was made any smaller. In fact, I think it was made larger, if I remember correctly what some of the Deh Cho chiefs said, who were also concerned with the size of the claimant area. What I would like to know is, has there been a boundary established yet between the Dogrib Treaty 11 claimant area and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation area because both groups are trying to finish their claims or their treaty entitlement negotiations or whatever you call them?
The federal government policy indicates that these things are supposed to be negotiated and out of the way before things are put into place and, in fact, several years ago before the Nunavut claim was finished there had to be a boundary established between us and the Inuit in the east. A few days ago, two new territories came out as a result of that land claim and the boundary that was established for their claim was actually used to split the territories and come up with two new territories. If there had to be a boundary in between us and them at that time, it seems to me that there has to be a boundary established between these two First Nation groups. I would like to know if there has been a boundary established between Dogrib Treaty 11 and the Yellowknives Dene First Nations. Thank you.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I have taken the concerns of the honourable Member very seriously when he first raised this issue in this House earlier on in the Legislative Assembly here and the instructions to our negotiators every time they go to the table and specifically even more strongly in the last session in Vancouver. Even prior to the last session in Vancouver I met with the grand chiefs and the forum chiefs of the Dogrib and among other concerns we raised the issue of the boundaries directly with them, saying this is going to be a political tough one for us if the boundary has not been resolved before you reach an AIP.
This was again raised at the negotiating table. I know there have been efforts put forward by the Dogrib Treaty 11 to talk with the chief in Ndilo here, as well as to representatives of the Dene in Deh Cho to try to resolve these two boundary issues. Specifically about the Ndilo and Detah people that are encompassed within the boundaries of the Dogrib Treaty 11, there was a meeting earlier today with the Grand Chief again on the negotiation issue there again. There again, I reiterated the concern that there should be some boundary arrangements prior to any agreement-in-principle and I understand from the Grand Chief, Joe Rabesca, saying that there was a MOU that was developed between Chief Fred Sangris of N'dilo and our own negotiator John B. Zoe. That is what I understand, but I do not know what the content of the MOU is. I do not know whether there is a boundary involved in the MOU, but since I do not know, I have to answer that there is no boundary that the Dogrib Treaty 11 and the Yellowknives Akaitcho agreed on to date. My understanding from what I have been told by the negotiators on the federal side is that the question of boundary must be dealt with before a final agreement. The federal government is still reluctant to divide up the North Slave region, so it is not a question of whether the Dogrib Treaty 11 want to draw a boundary. There is a question for the negotiating table, so the instruction to our negotiators coming up next week again is to further push this point. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Erasmus, your ten minutes is up. I have on the list for general comments, Mr. Krutko.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, my question to the Minister is that since this department is responsible for the negotiation of land claims and also responsible for aboriginal affairs, can the Minister tell me what role does Aboriginal Affairs play in the whole Northern Accord process? Are you involved in those negotiations or do you partake in the discussions on the accord because it is something that flows from the land claim agreements that was negotiated by this department at the time of the negotiations? What involvement does this department have in the overall Northern Accord discussions?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you. This Northern Accord is also, the lead Minister is also Stephen Kakfwi, however the role the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs plays is that whenever there is any concern that has implications for aboriginal people, the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs is very much involved and working with the other departments in this area. Yes, we are consulted and we are involved in talking about all these issues that affect aboriginal people. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, a few years back there was an elder from Detah charged with hunting illegally and he was charged by this government. Renewable Resources laid the charge against him. His defence was funded by this government because he was fighting the case on his inherent right, his aboriginal right, to hunt. He was a Treaty from Detah. Does the Premier remember that case?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes. I remember that case.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I commend the government for supplying the dollars for the defence of this elder on protecting his aboriginal right. Just recently, not so much of an elder, but a well-known Metis hunter in the Fort Smith region has been charged by the federal government for hunting in Wood Buffalo National Park. This gentleman went out and shot a moose and he went and told the park where he shot it, gave them all the meat, gave him his rifle, and he is defending himself to his inherent aboriginal right to harvest as well. When will your government be starting to help defend this gentleman?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, in this particular case we are familiar with the case. I am aware of it through the media, but I have not seen any briefing or any letters or anything in regard to this case on my desk, going through my desk or as Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. I am not even aware of whether he has requested the assistance of the government. I think what we are kind of huddling here about is trying to see whether anybody at this table here has heard about it. I think the only thing I could say is that if he is requesting assistance, and certainly we have a process in place as a government through Legal Aid, for example, and perhaps in the Department of Justice there is some funding for court challenges and so forth. Certainly if there is some request coming forward we will certainly entertain it. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, it is good to hear and I, too, do not know if he has requested, as of yet. I know a bit about the case, but it is good to hear the Premier and the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs say that, as before, where this government has stepped in to assist an aboriginal person to defend his rights they would give this aboriginal person serious consideration as well. As the Premier may know, he may as well save his time in applying for Legal Aid because that is not possible under the government's policy, the way it is. He would have to be destitute to even get it, so would it be through your Aboriginal Rights fund or do you have special dollars? Where would he apply, through your office or through Aboriginal Affairs or what?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you. In the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs we do not have funding for that type of assistance, but perhaps there is something within the Department of Justice to help out in this regard. We are not familiar with that as well, so we will have to check on that, but certainly if there is a request
for assistance in this regard I think we should be able to try to accommodate that request. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, self-government and self-government policy, is there any further work being done on that policy today?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, we have a self-government policy that we changed last year and what we are doing is we are working very hard and working on this policy by developing negotiating instructions as we move forward at all the different tables we are at. We are developing instructions for our negotiators based on the policy that we have in front of us now. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, our government, this government, it refers to, let us say the federal government, the provincial governments, territorial governments, aboriginal governments, is that, it refers to aboriginal organizations in the communities as aboriginal governments and recognizes them as aboriginal governments, is that correct?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. There was a statement in the House, as you recall, a policy statement saying that this Government of the Northwest Territories recognizes the aboriginal governments in each community. Through negotiations we are developing the work that needs to get into complying with the policy statement that was made earlier in the House. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We are referring to the aboriginal governments at the community level. Our government deals with provincial governments, federal government, foreign governments, aboriginal governments, all types of governments and we have Intergovernmental Affairs. I do not have the budget lying in front of me, but is there any necessity to carry on with a separate standalone department like Aboriginal Affairs where we could possibly save money by rolling that into the Executive and rolling it under into Intergovernmental Affairs because you are dealing with other governments? Has there been any exploration or look at possibly freeing up some dollars by combining that and tying it directly into Intergovernmental Affairs? Intergovernmental Affairs is normally held by the Premier's Office to show the importance of it. Would there be any work done to look at that so that Aboriginal Affairs would just automatically roll in through the Executive, into Intergovernmental Affairs?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you. There is no work on it, looking at combining it with Intergovernmental Affairs and Aboriginal Affairs, but at one point in time they were together and then they were split. They are both under my portfolio as responsible to the Executive as well, so certainly we could take a look at it to see what the possibilities are. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
They were combined before, so I guess it would not take that long to take a look at it. You would probably be able to give it an initial study to see the amount of dollars that you could save and within the period of time before this budget is passed in this House, like you have got two to three weeks, I believe? Would that be an adequate amount of time to take a look at whether or not it would be a cost-saving measure to this government to combine Aboriginal Affairs in with the Executive and Intergovernmental Affairs?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I do not think a couple of weeks is enough time to do it. I think something like that we need to take a real close look at it, look at the costs, the operation, the organizational structure, and so forth. As well, it has to go to Cabinet for approval to make the changes, so I do not think two weeks, the life of this session, would be long enough to do justice to looking at it and trying to do what the honourable Member is saying, to move ahead and make the changes. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How long would that take? Two months, three months? Your year starts April 1st. April, May, June, July?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not know about the timing. This is the first time it has come up here and I do not think we have thought of doing that. I do not think it will be that much of a cost saving when you do that. I think it would be very minimal because, as you say, this Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs is very small. The Intergovernmental Affairs section of the Executive is even smaller. I do not think there would be very much of a cost saving even if we did that. Thank you.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Premier. Mr. Morin, your time is up. General comments. Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Further to the comments on the Dogrib Treaty 11 land claim, I am not that familiar with their actual claim. However, I am familiar with other claims such as the Sahtu and the Gwich'in and I understand that there are similarities such as water boards and land management boards, those types of things. If those things exist in the Dogrib Treaty 11 claim, then presumably the area over
which they are contacted and over which they have a great deal of influence is over the total area of their land claim, within their land claims boundary. What I would like to know is, are there such boards of management, water boards and land management boards in the Dogrib Treaty 11 claim?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I would like to defer that to the deputy minister.
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Overvold
Yes, there is. It is an area of federal jurisdiction under the MacKenzie Valley Resource Management Act and the Dogrib have agreed to the same types of boards that the Gwich'in and Sahtu have agreed to. I think there is only one difference and that is in the area of land use planning. Rather than fitting into a public system, the Dogrib are going to be able to do land use planning on their own land.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I proceed, I would like to move that we extend sitting hours until we conclude Aboriginal Affairs today.
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The Chair David Krutko
Mr. Erasmus moves to extend sitting hours. The motion is in order. To the motion. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, those boards then, the water board and the land management boards and the wildlife management boards also exist, do those extend over the total land claim area that the Dogrib Treaty 11 have?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the deputy minister to reply to that.
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Overvold
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, they would. Similar to the regional boards in the Gwich'in and Sahtu areas, the jurisdiction extends to the settlement area boundaries. The problem with the Dogrib is that there is no agreement yet on what this settlement area boundary will be. They have to negotiate a boundary with the Akaitcho group and with the Deh Cho group. The boundary is not settled yet. Whatever that boundary is, which has to be settled before the final agreement, that is the area of jurisdiction that these boards will operate within.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The jurisdiction will extend throughout the settlement area and from my understanding, is it their position that they cannot move that boundary line to have one between the two groups? I do not know how they are going to resolve this issue. If their area of jurisdiction has the total settlement area and they do not move that boundary to somewhere between them, then the Akaitcho people would have virtually no area of jurisdiction of their own. The current boundary goes right around the communities and, in fact, goes to the southern shores of Great Slave Lake. Right on the door step of Tu Nedhe. The chief from Fort Resolution, if he wants to go fishing or needs to get a permit, currently has to ask the Dogrib chiefs if it is okay. The government has to do that. That is how bad it is and that is how bad it will continue to be because if those boundaries are not moved, it is not only that it also includes the Deh Cho people. All the people are being told that the boundary cannot be moved.
There has to be a way to resolve this, but Mr. Chairman, I just want it made known that I do not feel that there is any way that this government can allow an AIP to be signed unless there is substantial movement or perhaps even an actual boundary being put in place which respects the neighbouring first nations, the Akaitcho Territories and the Deh Cho First Nations. Thank you.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that was just a comment that the honourable Member was making. It was just a comment, so I will leave it at that. Thank you.
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The Chair David Krutko
Mr. Premier, you can respond to a comment, I do not mind. General comments. Does the committee agree that we go clause by clause. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
We are on page 2-59, Aboriginal Affairs, operations and maintenance. $3.698 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 2-60, Aboriginal Affairs, grants and contributions. Grants, $300,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Detail work done on behalf of third parties, total department, $679,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Information item, active positions. Any questions? We will return to program summary. Page 2-57, operations and maintenance, $3.698 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Just a small housekeeping item. Please turn to page 2-5, Executive, department summary. Executive, department summary, operations and maintenance, $30.334 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
I would like to thank the Minister and his witnesses. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.
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The Chair David Krutko
The motion is in order. The motion is not debatable. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. I will now rise and report progress.
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The Speaker Samuel Gargan
Good evening. The House will come back to order. We are on item 21, report of committee of the whole. Mr. Krutko.