In the Legislative Assembly on April 28th, 1999. See this topic in context.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 419

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that the departments in the social envelope work together in greater cooperation in developing programming that meets the needs of northerners and accomplishes the government's stated goals. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 419

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Does the Minister wish to bring in witnesses?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 419

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

April 27th, 1999

Page 419

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Does the committee agree to bring in witnesses?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, would you please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Mr. Roland, would you please introduce your witnesses.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my left is the Deputy Minister, Penny Ballantyne, and on my right is Warren St. Germain, director of financial and management services.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Are there any general comments on the department? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Minister, in his opening statement, had indicated that there are several factors that are driving up health care costs and that we need to take bold steps today to ensure that we will have an effective health and social services system in the future. That is definitely true. At the very start of this statement he indicated, is we have to find ways to divert limited resources from acute care to prevention and early intervention. Mr. Chairman, I believe we heard that last year. I was just wondering, is this not already underway? Have we not been working towards this for some time now? I am just wondering at the wording which says the greatest challenge is finding ways to divert limited resources. What I wanted to know is have we found ways to do this already and if we have, could we hear of some ways? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has worked with the boards in the area of trying to address the concerns in the acute care program. The department feels that we have worked with the boards in trying to address those concerns, but those areas continue to put pressure on our existing budgets to maintain the level of service we provide. As I stated earlier as well in my opening comments, that some of the more expensive methods of intervening after certain health conditions have been arrived at are significant. One of the focuses we are trying to work on in the area of prevention is tobacco cessation and reduction. That is an area where the disease of cancer catches on and is directly linked to tobacco. Trying to step in and provide services at that point becomes very costly. This is one of the areas we are looking at and working with the boards in trying to come up with methods of addressing those increased driving costs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Further questions? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the area of staff recruitment, retention and training, the Minister spoke about the nurses' training program that is an ongoing program at Aurora College. I know that the program has been a two-year program but that in the south, most provinces are moving towards a three-year training requirement for their nurses. Could the Minister indicate whether our course is still a two-year training program or is it a three-year program?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At present, the training we are involved with is still a two-year program. However, we are working with Aurora College and Education, Culture and Employment and the Nurses Association in trying to establish a full degree program here in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Further questions? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is there any indication of when the program may actually be implemented?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are going to be reviewing the plans for the fall of this year and hoping to implement and start the program in the year 2000.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Minister for that information. That is very good to know. I am pleased to hear that it is going to happen that quickly. When the nursing graduates finish their training program, they have to get practicums. In the past, some of those graduates have experienced difficulties in getting practicum placements in the north. Has the department moved to assist graduates so that they are encouraged to do their practicums and to stay in the north after they have completed their courses? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has been doing work in that area as well. We have worked with the Nurses Association to develop a mentoring program and continue to work with them in that area and finding mentors for the nurses that have recently graduated. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Further questions? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry, I did not quite hear the tail end of what the Minister said. Could he repeat the last part of his answer?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Could you repeat the last part of your answer, Mr. Minister, please?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 420

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will go even one step further. Mr. Chairman, as I said, with the mentoring program we have been involved with the Nurses Association. The department, along with the Nurses Association, have identified and continued to identify mentors for the graduates out of the nursing program who work with them through their practicum. So there is ongoing work in that area. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Further questions? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does this include help assisting them to actually find places to do their practicum?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have been told that we do work with boards to try and locate placements for the graduates. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Further questions, Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under medical travel I see that the Minister has included a half a million dollar increase in medical travel. Now the boards are looking at ways to contain these costs. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Nunavut was able to negotiate a deal with the airlines servicing Nunavut and they have been able to save a lot of money through that method. If they can do that in Nunavut truly we can do the same here. Have there been any efforts to try to do this?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Roland.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I stated we have been working with the boards and the boards have been working with each other to try and look at how they can contain these costs and still maintain quality service. There has been ongoing work in the area of medical travel with the boards and I think I can get Mr. St. Germaine to give us a bit more detail on that.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. St. Germaine.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

St. Germaine

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The boards in the western Arctic have been working together to look at options for managing the medical travel including how they could look at ways to reduce costs. They contracted a consultant earlier this calendar year to help them with that review and they just recently received the report and one of our recommendations is in fact to look at negotiating preferred rates or tendering for preferred rates with the commercial carriers. At this time they have not acted on this recommendation.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus your time is up. Further questions from other Members? Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a short comment and a number of questions of the Minister. I will start at the end of the Minister's statement where he talked about where we continue to have an excellent health and social services system in the Northwest Territories. Mr. Chairman, I would be inclined to agree with the Minister, at least from my own experience. That is not to say that there are not problems that we can work on, and I think the Minister and the officials have recognized that with some of the initiatives that are being taken. I have not had a lot of personal contact but I have talked to some of the clinic operators in Yellowknife and they are very concerned with the shortage of doctors and their ability to attract doctors to the city and I believe that it is fair to say that there is a shortage at the present time. It is certainly not critical but there is a shortage and we have an excellent facility in the capital city which serves all of the Northwest Territories. I am a little concerned that if there is difficulty in attracting medical professionals to the north, that all of the territories will suffer by not having that expertise here. My first question to the Minister is could he tell me about any assistance or plans that the department has in place to assist clinics or hospital to attract medical staff to the north? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are as well concerned with the recruitment of new doctors to the whole Northwest Territories and we have committed to work with the Northwest Territories Medical Association to sit down and look at the specific areas where we feel it can be addressed to try and improve the outlook that lies before us when it comes to physicians in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Further questions? Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I note in the Minister's opening remarks that he talks highly of the co-operation of all the partners. I also note in his statement where he points out, I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that the professional staff's doctors have not had a rate increase in a couple of years and if this is in fact correct, would this not be a good indication as to why it is so difficult to attract medical professionals to the north and what proactive steps is the Minister prepared to take rather than waiting for the Medical Association to maybe come and make the suggestion. Is the Minister prepared to take into consideration that compensation and the lack of any increases in the past three years may be strongly contributing to the lack of professionals here in the territories? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Medical Association, as stated in my Minister's statement, have voluntarily took some decreases when we were going through our reduction scenarios and we do recognize compensation is one of the factors but there are a number of other factors that are included in recruitment of doctors or keeping them here for long periods of time. For example, a clear majority of our doctors are from other jurisdictions and when they travel up here for long periods of time they at some point consider the placement or where they call home. So that is one of the factors and I think that is something we are trying to work on. The government as a whole is trying to have more professionals come through the system that are residents of the territories, born here so they do not feel the urge of moving on at some point. It is one of the concerns as I stated, it is one of a number of concerns and we are going to be meeting with the Medical Association to discuss the fee schedule in the near future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 421

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not believe that

doctor recruitment was a major concern for a number of years and as I note the Minister pointed out, there was a rollback and there have been no increases for a couple of years and the Minister did mention that some of the doctors did choose to move on. I am sure that the incentive of higher remuneration did attract them in the first place, so I am wondering if that is not the main reason that we are not being able to attract more doctors to the north? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

I take it you are asking a question, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister do you wish to comment?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As stated earlier, remuneration or compensation packages for doctors are part of the concern which we have in recruiting new doctors to our territory. I do not believe it would be the main reason for it. It is a number of factors. We have had a stable physician group for a number of years. One of the concerns is as the physicians are moving on to retirement, finding younger replacement doctors who have young families coming to the north is a concern. We have tried to address that, for example, out of the Alberta Medical School we have purchased a seat at the University of Alberta to try and have northern doctors trained through that facility. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are the medical schools, or does the Minister have any information to say that the medical schools in Canada are producing less doctors than they were a few years ago? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the concerns throughout Canada is with the reduction phase that Canadians went through with the federal government and the provinces, there has been a drop in potential graduates that would come through the system or entering into it. There has been a drop and there is a concern throughout Canada as to the number of physicians that will be available for Canadians. We are facing competition from other sectors in that area as well so it is a concern.

One of the areas in the Northwest Territories, it is a little more difficult to measure or try to receive numbers or get numbers on physicians because the majority of physicians in the Northwest Territories practice privately. Whereas for nurses, they are employees of the government and the boards so we can, with much work, pull the numbers together to track. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Going on to comments on the Minister's opening remarks regarding care and protection of children and youth and I note the Minister has a continuing concern with that. I also note that there is an additional $1.2 million being allocated to meet the growing demand of foster care services and youth treatment facilities. The $1.2 million sounds like a lot of money. What is the amount of money spent in this particular area annually or what did we spend last year? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That would require a bit of detail so I will get the specialist on the finances for our department, Mr. St. Germaine, to answer that.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. St. Germaine.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

St. Germaine

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For children's services we have budgeted for 1999-2000 approximately $6.4 million for children's services delivered by the health and social services boards and we have budgeted a further $3.2 million for services provided by southern institutions for children who are placed in the south for treatment. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. St. Germaine. Mr. Henry, your time has expired. Are there further questions from Members? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as was indicated in the report of the standing committee the Members of the committee are concerned that the treatment centre known as Northern Addictions Services, the organization that operates it had been in trouble for a while and a lot of that was due to the way the department had changed its funding. They based it on per diems, the number of people who were in the treatment centre. Another factor that came into play was the fact that the Northern Addictions Services Board had to pay a mortgage for the building that they are operating out of and of course they had to pay maintenance and the rest of that and what I would like to know is whether the treatment centre on the Hay River Reserve known as Nats'ejee K'eh, is that a private facility that the people in the Hay River Reserve have to pay a mortgage for or did the government build that building through a grant? How does that work there? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The facility on the reserve in Hay River is a government-owned facility and, through the department, was built and the organization on the reserve runs the program on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories. I might point out that the changes that did occur, as the Member mentioned on the per diem rating, did happen at that facility as well. They have managed to sustain themselves throughout. There is still, I believe, a 50 percent core funding that was provided to the facilities and is maintained at that level. I am aware, as well, on the NAS facility, that a mortgage is held by the group out of the NAS board. As well, in that agreement, they did receive some assistance through the Housing Corporation on a 2 percent write-down, I believe.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Further questions? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 422

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The maintenance costs and the total operations and maintenance costs for Nats' Ejee K'eh operations and maintenance, are those costs covered through the per diems and the money that goes to the Nats' Ejee K'eh or does the government contribute in any way to the maintenance or the operation costs? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Roland.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am informed that we do not pay any extra above and beyond the per diem rates, so out of that they would take care of their operations and maintenance costs. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does any government staff, say from Hay River, do any maintenance work on that building? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are not aware of any government staff providing maintenance for that facility on the reserve. We are not aware of that occurring. We would have to check into that and provide information back to the Member on it. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate if we excluded the costs for the mortgage payments that Northern Addictions Services has to make, how would that affect their budget? Would they still be in such dire financial straits? I imagine they would not be as bad, but they must pay a big mortgage, several thousand dollars a month. Could the Minister indicate how badly that mortgage affects them? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The way the per diem structure was set up was to incorporate the costs of the facilities and to ensure that if they were, for example, to keep the facilities at 80 percent occupancy, that they would be able to maintain all of their costs and provide the services without running into any financial problems. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee's concern, as indicated in the report, is that this addiction treatment center should not disappear as a treatment center for alcohol and drug addiction. Could the Minister indicate what the plans are for this particular facility? Will it still remain as a treatment center, or is the focus going to change? Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A review has been started regarding the NAS facility, at what reprofiling might occur. We, as a department, do not want to see a reduction in the drug and alcohol treatment facilities we have in the territories. We are looking at the NAS facility and looking at what can be done in the area of addictions treatment or other areas that we, as a department, feel we need to address concerns. There is ongoing work, at this time, to try and come up with a suitable solution to the concerns that are raised and the problems that have been ongoing for some time at the facility. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This review that is being done, there is an indication that it has not been completed yet. How long does the Minister think that this review will continue for?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The results of the work done to date were presented to the board of NAS and we are waiting for a response from them on that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus, your time is up. Are there further questions from Members? Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my time was up the last time around when I was talking about treatment centers. I would like to carry on from there, if I may. The Minister talked about sending youth to treatment facilities in southern Canada and the high cost of that. Is it more cost- effective to send our youth with problems south as opposed to treating them in the north? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has been looking at, on an ongoing basis, repatriation of all the clients we have that are out-of-territory. We have been looking at the cost-effectiveness of having our own facilities versus sending our clients, as we would call them, to southern jurisdictions. Because our numbers are increasing for sending youth and children to southern facilities, we are looking at that once again as to the cost-effectiveness of that and looking at, whether it would indeed be more fiscally prudent to have facilities in the Northwest Territories and treat from within the territories instead of sending residents south. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What facilities are in the Territories presently offering services to youth? What treatment facilities are here? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a number of facilities. We have Trail Cross, we have the Territorial Treatment Center. It depends on what level you want to go to, we have a number of group homes in the territories. And again, to the level you want to go to, we can include foster parents as well. It depends on what level you want to go to, to what degree of detail. There are a number of facilities in the territories that do take care of children in care. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It sounds like we have

sufficient facilities, or I assume that we have sufficient facilities by the response of the Minister. My question is, why are we sending youth south? Is it that we do not have the expertise here? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Roland.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the considerations that is taken into, whether we would keep the youth in the territories or send them to southern placements depends on the kind of treatment that would be required or the level of treatment. We are finding here in the territories that we do not have the highly specialized care that is required in a lot of these cases. As I said earlier, because we are finding that the number of children we are sending to southern placements is increasing, we are coming to the point where we could provide those services in the north and have a level of specialty care up here that we could not provide in the past due to the numbers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, earlier today I had asked a question to the Minister, and I believe he indicated that he would have the information later on today, which hopefully is now, regarding the costs involved in having health boards in each of the regions in the territories. What is the direct cost to the government to have that function? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Roland.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If we would get into the detail of the budget, we would be able to give him an exact breakdown of what happens there. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, hopefully I live that long. The Minister's forum is going out looking for feedback and he identified that it was not a fishing trip and I also agree with him that the system is probably good but needs changing. I would assume too that the Minister is intent on keeping the hospital and medical boards in place that are there now, so I would assume that he has a lot of faith in their abilities. I am wondering, was there any consideration given to, rather than a costly forum of which we do not know how much it is going to cost, but the last Minister's forum cost over $300,000, so I would assume that it is going to be in that same range, was there any consideration given to bringing the representatives or the boards together for a conference? I note that the Minister is planning a conference at the end of the forum, but was there any consideration given to just having a conference of the hospital or medical boards that are in the territories come together? I think they have identified over the last three years what the problems are. Was there any consideration given to that type of a forum as opposed to the travelling road show? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The boards do get together with department officials on a number of occasions to review ongoing concerns from their perspective. The Minister's forum that I am in the process of establishing and sending out is to review the concerns of the public in general, to inform them of our concerns and the cost-drivers we have within the system, as well as address the concerns raised of members in this forum. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Any further questions? Are you ready for detail? Page 6-9, directorate and corporate services, operations and maintenance, $22.210 million. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am wondering could the Minister indicate where in the budget the questions that I was looking answers for will be found so that we do not slip past them, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Would you be able to indicate that for Mr. Henry, Mr. Minister?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In fact, the contributions to boards is spread throughout the document, but for clarification on the question he raised earlier, the contributions to boards is in the area of $116,000 which includes the capital. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Henry.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that. Of that $116,000, how much does it cost to have the boards in place and administration of those boards? The information I am looking for, Mr. Chairman, is Nunavut are planning to disband their boards for a saving of $4 million. I am wondering what the potential savings, if the crunch ever came, what could the Government of the Northwest Territories look at saving if a similar action is taken? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The administration at the board level would range, it all depends on how you would break out the numbers because I could give the Member a number, but it would include a number of activities or program delivery activities that we would not see a savings in if we were to compare ourselves to what Nunavut is doing. For example, if you worked on the numbers, we could be looking at, for example, $7.6 million for all of the boards. Again, as I stated earlier, that includes program delivery portions of administration so, looking at that number and trying to compare it to Nunavut, we would not be comparing apples to apples, in a sense. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Further questions, Mr. Henry?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Fine for now. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Mr. Erasmus, you had questions.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted clarification. The funding for the treatment centres, is that under the community health programs?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For that level of detail, I will pass it on to my fine Deputy Minister, Ms. Penny Ballantyne.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Ballantyne

Yes, it is found in community health programs. Thank you.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus, further questions? No. Okay, back to detail. Directorate and corporate services, operations and maintenance, $22.210 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Jake Ootes

Directorate and corporate services, grants and contributions, contributions, $2.376 million. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion: 23-13(7): Cooperation Between Social Envelope Department (h&ss)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it was noted in the Budget Address by the Minister of Finance last week that the government intends to provide funding to establish a labour market supplement for nurses. The proposed objectives of this market supplement are to provide an incentive for current nurses to stay, to encourage new nurses to accept permanent full-time employment with health boards and to encourage northerners to pursue training for careers in nursing and in the medical field.