I call committee of the whole to order. We have Tabled Document 31-13(7), Bill 26 and Bill 23. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.
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In the Legislative Assembly on July 30th, 1999. See this topic in context.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to recommend that we commence with Bill 23.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
I will call the committee back to order. We are on Bill 23. I am going to ask the Minister of Finance, responsible for this bill, to make his opening comments. Mr. Dent.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, results in a net decrease of $683,922 in approved appropriations. Additional operations and maintenance appropriations of $1,428,965 are offset by a decrease of $2,112,887 in capital appropriations. Due to the net decrease in Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, there will be no negative impact on the government's operating results for the 1999-2000 fiscal year. In addition, approximately $778,000 of the new supplementary requirements will be offset by revenues or other recoveries. With the approval of Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, the total supplementary appropriations approved for the 1999-2000 fiscal year will be $21.7 million.
The major item included in the operations and maintenance supplementary appropriation is $1.2 million for implementation of the final Hay Plan job evaluations for nursing and social worker positions. The supplementary capital appropriation decrease results from a decrease in 1999-2000 capital requirements due to the plan to replace the Yellowknife Correctional Centre over a four year period rather than to renovate and expand the facility over several years at a higher cost. Madam Chairperson, I am now prepared to review the details of the supplementary appropriation document.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Dent. There is no committee review of this. I would like to ask the Minister if he would like to bring witnesses.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Is the committee agreed that the Minister should bring witnesses?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Agreed. Thank you. Would the Sergeant-at-Arms please escort the witness in. Mr. Dent, could you please introduce your witness for the record?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. On my right I have the secretary to the Financial Management Board, Mr. Lew Voytilla.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. General comments on the departmental estimates. Are the Members ready to go to the detail of the bill? Would Members please turn in their green binders to Bill 23, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1999-2000, and reference page five. Executive operations and maintenance, Financial Management Board Secretariat, not previously authorized, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Madam Chairperson, I am sorry. What page were you starting on?
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
I am starting on page five of the detailed portion of the bill. Department of the Executive. Does everyone have it?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry. You did not see my hand up. The indication here is that surplus staff housing units are going to be used for social housing in the communities of Fort Simpson and Norman Wells, five units in Fort Simpson and four units in Norman Wells. Could the Minister indicate if this is part of the yearly housing allocation that goes to communities? Every year communities get a specific allocation of housing units. Normally there are only two or three a year, and every community gets their fair share according to the housing needs survey that is done periodically. I think the last one was done last year. What I am wondering is if these allocations of five social housing units in Fort Simpson and four social housing units in Norman Wells are part of the yearly allocation based on the last housing needs survey that was done. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, actually the government has not allocated any new public housing since 1992. There have been no allocations by community since 1992. This government has not been able to build public housing units. Typically, the new housing that is built in communities is supported by home ownership programs that the Housing Corporation offers, and those are driven by application rather than by allocation. This transfer results from our policy of disposing of staff housing, and in that policy it states that in communities where staff housing is declared to be surplus, if it is not able to be sold, it is to be offered to the Housing Corporation to be used for public housing if needed.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am glad to know there is a policy in place to handle this. What does the policy indicate about the fact that these units are going in and about the allocation of units that those particular communities already have? For instance, I am not sure what their allocation was. Say, Fort Simpson is supposed to get five units this year. Are those five social housing units that are going in now additional units in that community? Do these units here take the place of the units that would have gone into those communities? Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. No, in fact if these units were not provided to the Housing Corporation to use as social housing, there would have been no social housing units built in those communities. There is no allocation for social housing for any community. Since 1992 this government has not been able to build new social housing units. Rather than having vacant staff housing sit empty in those communities where we have it, this policy which I understand was developed in consultation, with the Standing Committee on Social Programs, dictates they should be transferred to the social housing program. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I am not asking whether the government allocated social housing to the community. What I am asking is, does that community lose its other allocation then? This effectively puts five more units into the community of Fort Simpson, Nahendeh, and four social housing units in the Sahtu community of Norman Wells. Normally you only get a certain amount of units that are allocated according to the housing needs survey, so if you are getting five social housing units plus your normal allocation, then you are getting two or three times what you would normally get. What I am asking is, in Fort Simpson, say, do they get these five units plus their normal allocation? Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I do not believe there is any relationship between social housing and home ownership, so there is no tie in terms of allocation. There are no housing units allocated under the Social Housing Policy. As I said, home ownership is supported by the Housing Corporation on an application-driven basis. That would mean that if somebody could make an application to own a home, they would not typically qualify for social housing. So it is two completely separate groups of clients being dealt with here. The two programs are not linked in terms of looking at how many houses might go to a community. As I said, the only other option with these units, since we have not been able to sell them, is to have them sit empty. If there is a need in the community. The policy enables us to put them to good use.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand there are two different groups of clients that have absolutely nothing to do with the total amount of new units that will be in that community through the Housing Corporation. The only other option is not to leave them sit there. The other option is to give them those five units and take away the other units that they would normally get because they should not be receiving more units in one year than what the housing need survey says they are supposed to be allotted. There is a formula that has been adopted, and we should be sticking to that. Why is this community getting those extra units?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I must say, I do not accept the Member's argument that there should be a link between the two. I think that social housing is intended for an entirely different target audience than our home ownership programs. I do not see how we could say to somebody who qualified for home ownership that because we were able to move an existing structure, a structure that sits in the community right now so that rather than having it sit empty, we are providing it to the Housing Corporation to use for social housing. How can we say to a client who qualifies for a home ownership program, sorry, you cannot possibly get into this because we dealt with another program here. There should not necessarily be a link between these two programs. The Housing Corporation was not created to deal with just one client base. It was created to deal with a number of different client bases. All of those client bases have legitimate rights to have their needs dealt with as ably as this government can. Thank you.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am not disagreeing with the fact that all the various types of clients should have their needs met. What I am disagreeing with is the way these communities are getting an extra four and five units after the fact and not going according to the formula that is supposed to be used. The other thing I wanted to ask about, but I do not think we are going to get anywhere with that, the Minister had indicated that policy was developed with the Social Programs Committee or something to that effect. Could he indicate exactly when the Social Programs Committee reviewed that particular policy and agreed that it was the proper way to proceed? Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Madam Chairperson, could I direct this question to the Minister for the Housing Corporation. I believe he has that information.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This policy was driven by Members of this Assembly and the Social Programs Committee. The exact timing, I could not give the Member, but I know it was probably in the last two years before that because there was a large concern put forward that there were not enough social housing units in communities. Since, as a department, we have not built social housing units since 1992, the demand has been growing. When this government went on to sell the staff housing units, direction at that time was raised in this Assembly that we should be turning them to social housing units. So that policy was put into place and has been put into practice now for, I believe, over a year, because I believe we have seen this before. The units that are in the communities are first put up for sale by this government to the public and interested parties. When that does not happen, then it is given an opportunity for the communities to look at that. When it has been declared surplus by each department, then we turn them over to social housing units. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Erasmus, your ten minutes are up, and I will go to Mr. Krutko. If afterwards, you still have questions, come back. Mr. Krutko.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just following up on the same questions as my colleague, can the Minister tell me exactly how many other units have been transferred to the local housing authorities to be used for social housing?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Since 1996 until the present, there have been a total of 39 units in the Northwest Territories and 20 units in Nunavut. There were six in Edzo, 11 in Fort Rae, 11 in Fort Simpson, three on the Hay River Reserve, and eight in Norman Wells. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I know for a fact in my ridings, especially in Aklavik and Fort MacPherson, there are government units that have not been sold that are still being heated by this government but have not been transferred over. Why is that?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We have a number of housing units, in fact, 30 in the Northwest Territories right now in which sales are pending. They may be closing in the next few months because of conditions that were on the sale of the financing. But if we are unable to sell those units, they will certainly, in the not too distant future, be considered for transfer to the social housing arena.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is there some sort of time-line or deadline on how long these houses are going to be left on the open market, because this program has been there for about two years now? I am just wondering when are those units going to be given to the community. I just tabled a letter today from Tsiigehtchic to the Minister basically saying they are having overcrowding and there is a shortage of housing where people are having to leave the community because they do not have housing for the residents of that community. I would like to ask the Minister exactly when do they intend to allow for all these other surplus housing in the communities which have not been sold to the local housing authority?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We are hoping to have everything wrapped up in this fiscal year. I did leave out one important step when I talked about units that we found we were unable to sell and being transferred into social housing, and that is that if we cannot sell the units, typically the next step is to try and talk the community into taking over the ownership of those units, whether they are occupied or vacant. We would want to take that step first and then if we are unsuccessful with the community taking them on, then we will look at transferring them to social housing. But as I said, Madam Chairperson, our goal is to try and conclude this program by the end of this fiscal year.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is there a possibility that we can get a list that you mentioned there of the different communities and where the allocations took place so that we can see which houses are still left in which communities that have not been sold and ones that have been transferred to the local housing authority, can you make that information available?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We have already provided to Members a summary of staff housing sales and transfers within the Northwest Territories 1996 to 1999. We can certainly provide that again to the Member, and I will find out from him if he has any specific information that is not included on it and endeavour to also provide him with that information.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Can we receive it now so we can have a chance to review it in case we have other questions in that line?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This information was provided to the standing committee subsequent to our appearance in front of that committee with the supplementary appropriation, but I have copies available here if the page could take a copy to the Member right now.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regard to the question about need and where we do have a lack of housing especially in a lot of the smaller communities where there are no more social houses being built, there is a real problem especially with overcrowding and also people not having adequate housing or living conditions where there are people that are raising their children in homes where they still have honey buckets and having to heat it by wood stove and wood. You talk about Fort Simpson and Norman Wells where there is a large real estate market where you are able to sell units. There is also the private sector who is into supplying housing. You also have apartment units available. Who determines whose need is greater than the other's? A community where you have overcrowding or basically a
community that has surplus housing?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I do not think anybody would deny that we have a serious housing shortage in the Northwest Territories and that it has been an ongoing problem. I have been aware of it more so since being a Member of this Legislature. I do not believe that we are getting any closer to solving that problem given our fiscal situation. I understand the Member's concern. We have a policy which determines who is qualified for social housing and then we have a problem with the numbers who qualify and how many houses we have. The situation we have is that as we move to get out of staff housing, we are at the point where we have, in some communities, had houses that would sit empty if we did not move them into a program that would would allow people to qualify for social housing to utilize them. Rather than doing that, this was seen as a way to deal with that problem in those communities where housing was available. There is no question that this is the best situation. We would love to be able to have the money to build social housing in every community, but since we can't, this was felt to be the best solution for these houses. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. That is the other area that you touched on is the question about having housing available for our teachers, our nurses, and our social workers and whatnot that come to our communities. Because of the decision from this government to do away with housing for the nurses and the teachers, that has caused a real impact on the communities, especially now not only dealing with the social housing problem, you are also dealing with the demands of the professional people that come to our communities to serve in our communities.
A lot of these people that come to our communities are not able to find housing and are not able to take on those jobs because of either units that they do find are not adequate for their needs, because you are dealing with renting a housing unit which may have only a wood stove which people are finding themselves in regard to a culture shock going into these communities where they are not used to that lifestyle yet you get in these communities. That is all they have to offer. What is this government doing to ensure that we find a formula or a system to deal with this major problem in our communities not only for the residents but also for the professions that come to our communities?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In many communities, teachers and government employees have bought their own houses. In other communities, the staff housing that we have had has been offered to communities for them to provide to teachers and other professionals that they need in their community. I think we are prepared to deal with the needs as required on a one by one basis. In most communities, I think that people are being adequately housed. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Dent. That ten minutes is up, Mr. Krutko. I have Mr. Morin.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In the normal process, and I do not know if it has changed, maybe you will have to call on your Minister of Housing to help you with this, you look at the whole western Arctic, you have a pot of money in your Housing Corporation to meet housing needs in the community. If you renovate a public housing unit and bring it up to standard, you have met one housing need. If you allocate a housing program no matter which one it is, you meet a need. When you have your budgets, when we pass the budgets, we never can meet all the needs because there is not enough money, we all know that. Normally, I think we can meet about ten percent of the actual need, that is what you have. If a community needs ten units, they get one, for example. One housing need is met. Whether there is a whole variety of housing programs to meet different peoples needs. Ultimately, the allocation, the Housing Corporation has a very fair system of allocating units. It is driven by a needs study every three years. The only place that is treated differently that I understand is Yellowknife because of the private markets and all those things. All the other communities are treated the same, fairly.
When your staff housing selling policy says you offer it for sale to the person living in it, the government employee, if they choose not to buy it, then you put it out on the market. If the market does not purchase it then you turn it over to the Housing Corporation for public housing. That is a good policy as well. The problem is in this case you have Norman Wells and Fort Simpson, they are getting extra housing for public housing needs in that community without giving up some of that other stuff. Whatever the units are, say five, they are getting five extra housing needs met, more than any other community is. There is nothing wrong with the policy, nothing wrong with the way the Housing Corporation give out their units except for the two do not ever talk to each other to see if it is still fair, when you put the two they are seen separate. When in reality you are still meeting a public housing need. There is where the problem lies. Maybe things have changed, I do not know.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I understand it since 1992 there has been no allocation under public housing. There has never been a situation where an allocation of public housing would affect EDAP or IHP programs. Those are driven by applications from people who meet certain conditions and can support the ownership of the house after they are in it. It is my understanding that, in fact, there has not been that kind of shift since 1992 so I do not think this is a recent change, if there is a change. However I stand to be corrected by the Minister of Housing if I have misstated that.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It does not matter what the program is. I know there has been no allocation of public housing units, perse new buildings. Everybody knows
that because there is no new money. You have negotiated with CMHC on a block funding arrangement over a certain many years and the federal government is out of public housing and I know there is no new money to build public housing, but there are all those other programs and they have capital money in the budget in the Housing Corporation. Now the way they are allocating their dollars is based on need. It is a fair, fair system. Any given community, for example, in Lutselk'e, they get a certain amount of needs met per year and it is fair, the same as Fort Good Hope would or anybody else. When you throw into the mix because certain staff housing did not sell in a given community, all of a sudden they are getting five extra needs met, because ultimately that is what you do when you turn it over, hand the operations and maintenance over to the Housing Corporation. That is five extra units in their stock. If they are carrying 50 public housing units all of a sudden they are carrying 55 public housing units, so they get five extra needs met. There should be an exit of five other programs out of that same community and reallocated to make it fair. That is my simple understanding of allocating housing whether it is public housing, EDAP or whatever program you have or the selling off of staff housing to the Housing Corporation. Maybe I do not have it right, maybe somebody can clarify that.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Madam Chairperson, my understanding is that the Housing Corporation does not remove funding for EDAP or the Independent Housing Program in the case where houses are allocated to social housing through the Staff Housing Policy. Perhaps we should ask the Minister of Housing to provide some clarification on that.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. At the present time the Housing Corporation does not remove other program funding or EDAP funding from communities based on transfer of social housing units. Each region has been allocated funding to run the programs they have, whether it is transfers to LHOs and so on, but the EDAP program as well. Then from there it is broken down roughly on a community basis as applications come in, but the districts have a fair bit of flexibility depending on where most applications are being generated from. Right now, as the program exists, there is no reduction in the EDAP program for any region based on the housing transfers. Thank you.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you. Then those communities that do not sell off there staff housing, they get that extra little boost of housing into their public unit. I also know and maybe yourself or the Minister of Housing can clarify this, is that there was a fairly concise decision made to encourage home ownership and home ownership has been the biggest priority of the Housing Corporation. Before their portfolio used to be made up of the majority of building up public housing unit stock, building new public housing units. That switched to home ownership.
If these houses cannot be sold on the market and probably because of the appraisal value they are only allowed to sell for 10 percent less than that is the policy. When they are transferred to the Housing Corporation those would be good units to put back into the home ownership program where they could be reduced in price and renovated and then put out to the market for home ownership instead of carrying them on your public housing stock we have to carry them forever, for the next 35 years you have to carry them at that price that you have in the budget every year. Ultimately you would encourage home ownership and you would not need the operations and maintenance money that you are asking to transfer because they would not need it then. Because you would need only the capital money to renovate them to make them livable so home ownership clients can purchase them through the EDAP program or whatever.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand what the Member is saying, but, I would come back to what I said earlier in response to Mr. Erasmus and that is that is it fair to tie the groups together? In the case of a 25 year old house, it is going to be difficult to find somebody who can afford to operate it. That would be my first thought. There is a need for social housing and if we have some units that we can turn over to it, we should. I know it may not seem fair that we cannot do it in every community, but if we have some available it would seem prudent to do that. In terms of the overall policy question, I would have to defer that to the Minister for the Housing Corporation.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The whole area as I stated earlier once again initially when this government started to sell staff housing units, there was much concern raised by Members in this Assembly as well as in the Social Programs Committee that we should be trying to use some of these units for staff housing units, so the policy was developed in that range. Just a little further on the EDAP program, as a Housing Corporation, we are feeling that we have come close to totally utilizing the portion of the population that could fall into that EDAP program. The Housing Corporation is already sort of looking at what is out there. We need to do that along with another survey that is being done this year. There are some ongoing things but it was through this government that the policy was set up and we have been following for a number of years now.
I think if there are concerns that this is not working properly that we need to address that and try to come up with some program that is fair, but at the same time when we have residents in whatever community that they might come out of that can afford the EDAP program and have their own home, we know as a government that it is better to have people in their own homes then in public housing units, so that is why the big push was on. As I stated earlier, where we have come to a position, or very close to it, that the people with higher incomes and social housing units have gone on to purchase their own homes, so we are coming to that stage where we have to relook at that program. That has not been undertaken as of yet, but we are considering what we have to do in the future. Thank you.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. First of all, this page here does not really tell us too much. It talks about regions. It does not say a word about any communities, unless there is something on the back. The list that the Minister had read out indicated the exact communities in which units had been transferred. Perhaps he could read it out so we can write it down if he cannot give it out.
Madam Chairperson, the other thing I wanted to know. For these units, five units to Fort Simpson and four units to Norman Wells, are there additional operations and maintenance dollars transferred to operate those units, or does the housing authority have to use their current dollars to operate those units? Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The department making the transfer, which is FMBS, provides the money that it normally would spend on maintenance and outgoing expenses of these facilities, and then it is topped up through this supplementary to ensure that they have adequate funds to provide them.
If I can go back to the Member's first question, I have asked that copies be made of the detail that I read out earlier in the House. I would note that what I have with me refers only to social housing, but if there is any other information Members require, I will endeavour to provide it.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I think I will wait to get the other information before we ask for clarification. What the Minister is saying, then, is that in some lucky communities that have a bunch of overpriced staff housing that they cannot sell, communities with no housing market and no hope of reselling a house if you buy it an overinflated price, if you happen to be lucky enough to live in that community, you can increase your amount of units plus your budget through the back door periodically. Is that what I am hearing?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I guess I have more confidence in the licenced appraisers who say that we are in fact getting a true reflection of the value of the property, that if we offer it for ten percent below the appraised value, that is in fact a fair price. That does not mean that there will always be a buyer for a house in a community, even if it is being offered at below that fair price.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I happen to know that there are several units sitting in Fort Rae empty, and one is valued at $160,000, I believe. If it was selling in Yellowknife, you probably could not get $50,000 for it. I would like to know, how do these people arrive at their prices? How do they come up with their prices?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would have to ask the Member to provide us with the specifics of the units of which he speaks. We could then provide him that detailed information. Typically an appraiser will use a combination of factors, the replacement cost or a market assessment, and there may be other factors as well. I would have to know the specific unit, and then I could endeavour to provide the Member with the mechanism or the methodology by which the value is set.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this page there have been 11 units already transferred to Fort Simpson plus another five coming up. Is that correct?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, no, the units transferred to the Housing Corporation April, 1996, to the present include those that we are discussing today.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can we have an indication of when these other ones were transferred, in Norman Wells and Fort Simpson?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, we do not have the exact dates for the previous transfers with us in the House. We would be happy to provide that information in writing to the Member forthwith.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Mr. Chairman, how does the government determine how long these units should stay out there for sale? It is saying that some of these have been transferred since 1996. Why were some transferred right away and there are still some that have not been sold and have not been transferred yet?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It could be that we have had expressions of interest in some houses from individuals. We feel that there may be a chance to sell them. If we can sell a house rather than transferring it and not getting the revenue, we will try and do that for as long as we think is reasonably possible. There could be land issues that have to be solved before the unit could be sold. There may be offers pending, as I said. We have offers pending on 30 units right now
in the Northwest Territories. There are a number of reasons why things do not happen at the same speed in all communities. Again, without referring to a specific unit, it would be difficult for me to answer why one had sold and one had not.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From this page that I have here, I cannot tell which communities still have units outstanding. I would like to have a list of that. The other thing I would like to know is, how does this government propose to rectify the unfair allotment of units that has occurred, so that all the communities can get a similar amount of allotted units, like the 11 to Fort Simpson and the eight to Norman Wells.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the Member's first question, I do not have the information about the location of the remaining staff housing units with me, but we will certainly provide that very quickly to the Members. On the second question, I do not think that the government agrees that it has been an unfair allocation. I would have to wait for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation to bring forward a paper to address that if he felt that this was unfair. As I said in an earlier answer to the Member, Mr. Chairman, I am not convinced that it is proper to tie together allocations for social housing and for home ownership. It is two different groups that typically qualify for those programs.
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The Chair David Krutko
We are discussing Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, under executive operation and maintenance. Your directorate is -$42,000.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is only so much money in the Housing Corporation's budget to meet the housing need of the community. In community A you have staff houses out on the market that cannot sell. In community B you have staff housing out on the market that cannot sell. In both cases they transfer the staff housing to the Housing Corporation. In community A they renovate that housing with their housing program dollars and sell it to the homeowner who can afford to pay $32 a month plus operations and maintenance. Their public housing need stays the same. The list stays the same. That is what their allocation was based on, a combination of their public housing need and the housing need survey. In community B they allocated to the housing authority, and they keep it for public housing stock. They do not have to spend any of their program money to renovate it or meet a need. It increases the needs that are met. I agree with your Staff Housing Policy. It is a good policy to get rid of them. I agree with how you allocate units. It is fair. It has always been fair.
When you look at them both and you combine them, then all of a sudden it becomes unfair. One is from FMBS and one is from the Housing Corporation, but when you combine the two, you are meeting extra needs in the community on your social housing programs. All of them are social housing programs. Whether it is a public house, EDAP, down payment assistance or whatever program it is, they are there. That has happened. I know it. When our government goes to sell those units, the price is at one price. It is from their appraiser plus ten percent below, and that is the price they pay. When they cannot sell it then, they turn it over to the Housing Corporation, and they can meet the community's need by renovating it to bring it up to standards because it is 20-some years old, so that it is energy efficient and people can afford to run. They use their money that is allocated to that community to meet housing needs, because they have met a housing need by renovating that unit. Then they give it to the client on that program where they go to the bank and get so much and make payments of only what they can afford. That is how it is met, and that is all Housing Corporation money.
You see how the two policies should work hand in hand. They are both good policies, but they should work hand in hand to ensure that no community gets extra social housing needs met where other communities are not given equal access or fair access to that same thing. Do you understand the concern, Mr. Minister?
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I have heard the comments of Members today, I believe that as this is presented to you, it does follow our existing policy. I will commit to Members to discuss with the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation whether or not we need to review our policies. That is my commitment today, to follow up on this issue with the Minister, discuss how FMBS policies in terms of transfer of units to communities or to the Housing Corporation may be looked at in light of other Housing Corporation policies. We will take another look at that, Mr. Chairman.
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members do not have recourse or much recourse when it comes to the system we work in. The only thing that Members are allowed to do is recommend and delete from the budgets, if they can carry a motion. Hearing what the Minister said, I think he truly understands what the concern is, and he is taking action. He is going to do something about it. When Mr. Roland spoke just recently, what Mr. Roland said was that they are doing a new housing needs survey this year. This may create an imbalance at this present time of how housing units are allocated, and it may have created an imbalance before. I do not know. The government is moving to rectify it, because Mr. Roland, through the Housing Corporation, is doing a new needs survey, so these houses will be dispatched in those communities and they will be taken into consideration during the needs survey. That is how it is going to happen so I have no problem with it. The other thing the two of you should address is how those two policies should work together, that is it, and you have committed to that so it is straightforward. I thank them.
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The Chair David Krutko
We are dealing with Supplementary Appropriations Act, No. 2, executive operation and maintenance, total department, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The proposal to
look at future allotments and a needs survey works for the future, but it does not consider the fact that there have been a small number of communities that have received a large amount of units. Thirty-nine units in total that the vast majority of the other communities in the North have not been able to receive. I would like to ask the appropriate Ministers if they would take that into consideration when they are looking at their new policy because effectively after this is done, Norman Wells, for instance, will have received eight extra units. Fort Simpson will have received 11, Fort Rae will have received 11, Edzo will have received six. Normally those allotments you do not get that many units except over the course of two to three years sometimes. These units have to be taken into consideration in future allotments. I would ask the Ministers to also consider that. Thank you.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have listened here with an intent as to the concerns raised by Members in regard to this and the reference of comparisons between EDAP or Independent Housing Program to the sale of staff housing units. I mentioned earlier that the Housing Corporation is doing a needs survey. Any of these units that go into a community will be taken in and that need will be seen to as being addressed, so it will lower their needs, so it will automatically change the forecasting that would come out of it.
As we have said earlier, there have been no new social housing units built since the federal government removed its funding from our hands. We have tried to focus on putting people into their own homes since then and since it was direction from this government, all Members, on trying to meet some of the social housing needs, this has been the approach adopted. As I said earlier, when we do the housing survey, it will be completed before the end of this calendar year, I believe, it will impact on the future forecast because as they go through those communities that have received these housing transfers into social housing units their need will have seemed to be met or at least decreased from the previous time it was out which was 1996. It will have that impact. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you, Mr. Roland. At this time I would like to recognize Mr. Gary Bohnet, President of the Metis Nation. Welcome, Mr. Bohnet. Total department, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I still have about six minutes here. Mr. Chairman, I agree that the new housing survey will partially address this unequal allotment of units. However, because communities do not receive their total allotment of their needs, it is only based on a percentage, it does not totally address it because five units to Norman Wells or Fort Simpson this year, might be their total allotment. Their total allotment, but if you only take five units out of their total needs that is not the same thing because you are lowering their needs by five units but say if you only get ten percent of your total needs every year, by lowering your needs by five units it might not even knock one unit out of their allotment for next year. If you say if your receive ten units last year when you are only supposed to get five, next year you could have absolutely nothing. That is the way it should be addressed, or you lose a certain amount for a certain amount of years until you make up those five extra units that you have.
Communities, for instance like Dettah, they have absolutely no staff housing units. Are they going to get extra units allotted to them for that? Because they have had no opportunity to be given 11 social housing units like Fort Simpson or Fort Rae, or eight units like Norman Wells.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, I stated earlier that giving staff housing to communities whether it is to provide housing to teachers or others in the community or if it is being turned into social housing is not a fair allocation. I agree there has not been fairness there. The alternative was to let them sit empty. I have made a commitment to discuss with the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. How our policies should be looked at and how they might work together. The Minister for the Housing Corporation has said that a housing needs survey is underway. We will take a look at our policies, take a look at the needs survey and then try and determine the best way to make sure that this government meets the housing needs of its citizens as best we can. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand what the Minister is saying, but looking at a housing survey and how things are done in the future should also include the fact that these communities have received these extra units. That is all I am asking for, that the allotments in the future take into consideration that these communities have these extra social housing units and somehow ensure that the rest of the communities in the Northwest Territories are able to either access similar amounts or to rectify it in some other way so that they do not receive an unfair amount of housing units. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Member is providing us with advice on how he thinks we should proceed. We will take that advice into account as we discuss our future policy directions.
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Mr. Chairman, do we have a quorum?
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The Chair David Krutko
Mr. Erasmus, are you asking us to recognize a quorum? The Chair recognizes a quorum. Total department, -$42,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
We are on page 6 of Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, Municipal and Community Affairs, operations and maintenance. Regional operations not previously authorized, $148,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 7, Public Works and Services, operations and maintenance, asset management not previously authorized, $148,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair David Krutko
Page 8, Health and Social Services, operations and maintenance, director of corporate services, $1.248 million. Mr. Erasmus.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we all know that we have a crisis surrounding the shortage of doctors and nurses in the Northwest Territories. It is costing a lot of money to bring people in on a short term basis. We have to fly them in and out and also I understand that because of the nurses' inexperience in the communities, some of the nurses are medevacing people out when normally they would not be because they are afraid that something might happen, understandably so, that they do not want people to be harmed unnecessarily. Mr. Chairman, what I would like to know is there had been a position advertised for the director of human resources and board support for the Department of Health and Social Services, and apparently this has been cancelled. I am sure that this director of human resources and board support would have done a great job in implementing the final Hay Plan job evaluations and everything else. I would like to know why this position has been cancelled? Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I doubt that position would have been involved at all in this job evaluation adjustment that we are talking about today. But in terms of specific positions, I cannot answer that question, so I will have to defer to the Minister of Health and Social Services.
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That position was changed, not cancelled. Some of the roles of the initial position that went out were altered before the job was completed through the evaluation and before taking anybody on. There have been a number of changes within the department so that the role has changed, but there is a new position going out for competition that has been changed in response to the changes that were made previously. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This position was put out a couple of times and taken back a couple of times. It was advertised and put out for people to apply to a couple of times already. Is this going to be the last time, and is this position still going to be in existence?
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Member was requesting the Minister of Health and Social Services to answer this question.
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The position, as I stated earlier, will be going out to competition not in the same manner as it did previously, but it has nothing to do with the Hay Plan evaluations that were done on the adjustments. If the Member wanted to discuss this at a later time, I would gladly provide him with all the information that is available to me. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that having a director of human resources is a very, very important position having to do in the area of nursing and social work. What I would like to know, is there still going to be a director?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair David Krutko
Mr. Erasmus, like the Minister indicated, this is outside the scope of this particular matter at hand. We are dealing with the Hay Plan job evaluation for nurses, and that is the $1.248 million. Mr. Erasmus.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Minister had already answered a question in relation to this particular position. He indicated that it is going to be going back out. Since he already answered the question, I just want clarification of what position is going to be going out.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I stated earlier, there has been some alteration in the actual job itself, but I would have to get more information from my department. As I said earlier in my previous response, I would gladly sit down with the Member and go over this and provide the information that I have available. We could try and do that later on today, if that is possible. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair David Krutko
Thank you. We are dealing with the Department of Health and Social Services, operations and maintenance, director of corporate services, $1.248 million. Agreed?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could indicate how the Hay Plan job evaluation for nurses and social work positions are actually done because I understand that nurses are complaining that they are not being treated as professionals, and we cannot continue to lose nurses the way we are particularly when people are getting equal salaries to what we are offering here, people's salaries and benefits down south. How are these job evaluations being done?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the job evaluation is conducted by a committee within each department, led by a facilitator. Members of the committees are trained in the Hay job evaluation method. The departments are working towards establishing committed membership in order to ensure gender parity and that members are knowledgeable about a large number of jobs and functions within the department at headquarters and regional levels. These committees have been working since December, 1997, to evaluate all UNW and excluded jobs.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I had indicated in my statement today, I think that this process is tying us down too much. What would have to happen to get the nurses out of this Hay Plan business and the unions and all the rest of that, get them out of this process so that we can respond quickly, if we have to, in order to attract nurses back into the Northwest Territories? We cannot continue to afford to bring nurses in temporarily from down south and fly them back and forth and then have them medevacing people left and right, increasing our travel costs?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One way would be that if there was a clear indication that nurses felt that they wanted to see this change and health boards agreed with it, we could move to make nurses employees of the health boards, in which case they would fall under the Canada Labour Code.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair David Krutko
Director of corporate services, $1.248 million. Mr. Erasmus, your time is up, but I will allow you more questions.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of more questions. I did not quite hear what the Minister had indicated. Do the nurses themselves have to apply or whatever to become employees of the health boards?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This could be done on the initiation of the government as an amendment to the Public Service Act, but my comments indicated that I do not believe that the government would be prepared to act without there being a significant amount of consultation, direction and interest being expressed in seeing that change made.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
The first step, there would have to be an expression of interest from the nurses? Is that correct?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, but there would also have to be the policy consideration by the boards themselves. We have nine health boards that would have to agree to take on the responsibility of being the employer, which currently they are not. It is the Government of the Northwest Territories that is the employer.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Would this have be all of the health boards? Would they all have to agree to this or could one specific board and their nurses do this? For instance, could the Stanton Hospital here do that alone if the nurses and the board desire to do something?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I cannot answer the question. There would have to be some considerable policy considerations by this government in terms of whether or not we could look at a piecemeal approach or whether we would have to see it done on a blanket across-the-board basis. Without there being some consideration of that, I cannot really say how we might look at it.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. There would have to be policy considerations and there would have to be representation from the nurses, as well as the boards. Would one option be that the nurses have their own union separate and work for the boards?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Madam Chairperson, that change would require a legislative change. It does not mean that it could not happen, but again it would be a situation where we would have to take a look at the policy considerations and make a decision as to whether or not we were prepared to proceed in that way.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would just like to thank the Minister for his forthright replies. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Health and Social Services, total department, not previously authorized, $1.248 million. Agreed?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 738
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Next page, NWT Housing Corporation, operations and maintenance, NWT
Housing Corporation, not previously authorized, $70,365. Mr. Erasmus.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Could I ask for clarification? How long is this money for? How long a period is it to be used over? Is it eight months, a whole year, how long?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The $42,000 is based on the value of the units. The $28,000 is prorated. Some of the units were transferred at the beginning of the year and some not until August. That amount, next year, will be increased. We are projecting a target change in the next year of $33,528 as opposed to the $28,365, which is prorated this year. The interdepartmental transfer is also prorated this year of $42,000. That will be rising to $52,000 for next year.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am not exactly sure how much this works out to for each of the two communities, but is it possible for Dettah and N'dilo to receive equal increases in their budget to their housing authority?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The $42,000 this year and the $52,400 next year are monies that this government expends right now on those houses. That is not a situation where there are additional monies being provided. In terms of the $28,000, which rises to $33,000 next year, that is supplementary. This will all have to be tied to the discussion that I am going to have with Minister Roland about our policies and how the policies of the two departments work together.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am aware that this is money that is currently being spent, but it is also increasing the budgets of those two respective communities. That is why I want to know if the communities in my constituency will also be lucky enough to get a comparable increase to their budgets.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I said, the situation is one in which we do not have a lot of money to spare, but we will certainly consider the Member's arguments when Minister Roland and I have our discussion about how our policies can work together when it comes to housing.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Madam Chairperson, I would like to make a motion to extend hours at least long enough to conclude consideration of the bill. Thank you.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. The motion is in order. The motion is not debatable. Question has been called. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed to the motion? The motion is carried. Thank you. The committee has before it operations and maintenance, not previously authorized, $70,365. Agreed?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Agreed. Thank you. Department of the Executive, capital, directorate, not previously authorized, $625,000. Agreed? Mr. Erasmus.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is the $625,000 in any way tied to those nine units, four going into Norman Wells and five going into Fort Simpson?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. No, there is no connection between them.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Could the Minister indicate what it is for then?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In the smaller communities in the Northwest Territories, the government will purchase back a property from an employee who is transferred or who is leaving the employ of the government and moving from the community if the employee is unable to sell the house. The purchase price is ten percent below appraised value. The government, after purchasing the house, then puts the house on the market at appraised value. Typically, Madam Chairperson, we have recovered all of the costs in this program. At present none of this money has been spent. This money is in the budget in case it is needed in a smaller community. It is based on the estimate that we may need to purchase some housing units throughout the course of this fiscal year.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. What happens if these units are not sold?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We would have to take a look at that situation if it arises. To date it has not been a problem.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Madam Chairperson, what I am interested in is, does it follow the same policy as the other units? Does it go into social housing?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. That other policy is pursuant to staff housing, so I am not certain that technically this would fit into it. Since we have not run into the problem before, I do not know that there has been an examination of whether or not it would. It could be something that we could consider, whether or not units that we were unable to sell would also fall under that policy. Our Staff Housing Policy applies to housing units where we have been providing housing for employees. In this situation we are buying housing from an employee who had their own house. I am not sure that would really qualify as staff housing. We would have to have a look at it. I do not think that it is clearly set out in our policy. It has not been a problem.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The rationale, as I understand it, to turn the staff housing into social housing is that there is no sense in leaving government houses empty. If you cannot sell these, presumably the same rationale exists. You do not want to sit there paying for these units if they are empty, so we are going to have to do something with them. I am asking, will they go under the same policy?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I said, if we wind up in a situation where we have to consider that, I think we would likely consider these houses as fitting under that policy. It would be something that I would have to examine as to what our Staff Housing Policy says now and ensure that it does in fact apply to these properties should that eventuality ever come to pass.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Executive capital directorate, not previously authorized, $625,000. Mr. Krutko.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Can the Minister tell us exactly where these units are located, in which communities?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. There are no properties. This money is in the budget if the situation arises. This program only applies in the smaller communities. The government has agreed with its employees that if in a certain period of time they are unable to sell their properties, the government will purchase them at ten percent below the appraised value. What we are doing here is we have estimated what we think the potential uptake might be in the course of this fiscal year and are putting money in the budget so that if that situation arises, we can follow through on the policy which we have made available to our employees.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Can the Minister tell me if there have been any employee housing units purchased and exactly where those purchases have taken place?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. None of the $625,000 has been spent this year. The government has not purchased any houses under this policy this year. There were some that were purchased last year, and that information, the locations of those units, was provided to the standing committee.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
In regard to these units that have been purchased in the past, has the government been stuck with these units and not able to sell them at this time?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We do not believe that we are stuck with any of them. There may be one or two that have not sold yet, but we are confident they will sell.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Department of the Executive, capital, total department, not previously authorized, $625,000. Agreed?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 740
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 740
The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Agreed. Thank you. The Department of Justice, capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,730,887. Mr. Krutko.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regard to the specific project, in the budget in regard the main estimates, there was $4 million allocated for a retrofit of the existing facilities. I would like to know why has there been a change in this project without it being approved by the Members of this House.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, Cabinet and FMB were presented with the option of spending significantly more money to renovate the correctional centre or saving approximately $5 million by doing the project over approximately four years instead of seven and building new. The decision was to make that change and save the taxpayer some money.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I believe the other two projects that we were looking at, were talking about realizing that we were in a financial crunch when it comes to capital projects. One of the initiative
we were looking at was a P3 process to look at some of these projects. But in the case of this project, it was going to be a retrofit of $4 million spread out over a period of time of $24 million, but for myself, I support the initiative of renovating the existing facility and also realizing that we are limited on the amount of capital projects we would like to see in the Northwest Territories. But for us to put all our eggs in one basket, I do not find that being fair to the other regions or communities in the new Western Territory.
We sit here, we talk about community justice and also trying to get communities more involved in the justice systems in our communities and trying to deal with those problems at home. But I believe that the amount of money that is going to be spent here, all we are doing is basically entrenching the concept that there will be a trend that is starting to institutionalize people instead of trying to help them and deal with their problems in the communities and also deal with the problems with the families and finding new mechanisms. There was a report in the past where it talked about on the land programs to get people housed in facilities.
There were two areas located, one was in my riding of MacKenzie Delta and Aklavik. There was supposedly $500,000 that was going to be put into that project, which was $50,000 put into planning, and that was the end of it. We talk about trying to find new ways and new methods of dealing with our problems. I believe we have to put more emphasis in the area of prevention than basically institutionalizing people. I would like to ask the Minister, is that opportunity still going to be available to other regions and other constituencies to consider those community correction programs to look at on the land programs to house people in camps and whatnot than have them put in all this facility?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It would be difficult to argue with the issue of prevention being better than trying to cure the problem of incarceration or the problems that cause incarceration. I certainly agree that prevention is one of the best ways to approach some of our society's problems. Unfortunately, we have a situation where we have to deal with a certain number of people right now. The facilities that are provided for those people are unacceptable. We have been told by people ranging from those involved with the Evans Report to the fire marshal that we have to deal with concerns. I am sure the Member would not want us to leave people in the sort of situation in which they are. I would certainly hope that we could still continue to see an expansion of on-the-land programs. From what I have seen personally, I think they tend to be extremely successful. It does not however take away from the fact that we are still going to have a certain number of people who will not qualify for those programs and are going to have to house.
In this situation, the initial budget that was presented to the standing committee in this House was fairly imprecise that time. The $28.3 million was the estimate we had. As I understand it, sometime after the budget planning process, after going to committees, and after the budget books had been prepared, Ferguson Simek Clark came back and said, in fact, to build this over seven years is going to cost you $35 million. Conversely, you can build this project with the same scope of the project as originally proposed, $5 million less. In other words, $30 million rather than $35 million if you built it over four years instead of seven years. We were presented with the opportunity to either save $5 million over what the cost was going to be to achieve the same functional program, as presented to committee and to this House, or spend $5 million more to do the same thing.
It would have been irresponsible of us not to commit to the saving of this money. I would hope that this saving would allow us to put monies into other programs. Far better to put the $5 million into other areas than into a building that holds people in jail.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just looking at the Main Estimates, the total cost of the project was supposed to be $28.330 million. Now you are telling us it is $30-something million, and that is why I had no problem supporting this idea of renovating the project. Also, in your handbook you mentioned that the government is committed to improving the quality of a correction facility, planning a much needed renovation to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre will begin this year. That is in your own words, Mr. Minister. I do not know what happened in the last four months for the estimate to jump from $28 million to $30-some million. This was based on what we approved in this House in regards to the Main Estimates in which it clearly stated that there was going to be $4 million spent this year. Now, the change has taken place. That number has increased drastically. Also, it changed the scope of the project. It is now a new project. Personally, I do not believe that you are being fair in regards to what is being said here but also what is documented on how we came up with the decision of funding a renovation to this facility. When have these changes in numbers taken place, and why is it such a drastic change?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
July 29th, 1999
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. When the cost was presented to committee, it was thought, at that time, that the project could be accomplished for around $28.3 million. As the plans developed further the cost changed. This is not uncommon, as the Member will know from past projects, whether schools or other projects, when the design work gets further along, the costs increase or you find other problems that you have to address. This magnitude of change on a $28 million project is not unusual at all. As the calibre of the estimates and the planning got further along, it became apparent that it was going to cost significantly more to rebuild YCC rather than replacing it with a new facility. As I said, the estimate went from $28.3 to $35 million. It was at that point that the consultant came back to us and advised we could do the same thing if we were prepared to build it over four years instead of seven. You can build a new facility for $5 million less than what you can renovate this facility for and provide the same functional program. As I say, you are irresponsible not to consider that savings of $5 million.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Who is the Minister
responsible for this project?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
The Minister responsible would be Mr. Kakfwi, the Minister of Justice.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
When you change the scope of work of a project, does it go to FMBS? Is that where it goes for a change?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The decision to change was made by FMB. Mr. Morin is using the term scope of a project. In the early capital planning stage, the functional program was considered the scope of the project. I want to make sure that we are both using the word scope in the same way because if we are going to talk about changing the scope of the project, did we change the functional program, the answer is no. Did we change it from renovation to a reconstruction, yes. Have we done that many times, yes.
Tsiigehtchic School project in your constituency, Mr. Chairman, was changed from renovation to new construction. We did not, at FMB, consider that a change in scope. We changed the Inuvik maintenance garage from renovation to new construction. We changed the Aurora Campus in Inuvik from relocation and refit of Grollier Hall to new construction. All of these changes were based on information coming forward that proved to us that we could accomplish the same functional program in a more economic way for the taxpayers. Those are not all new and recent changes. Some are changes that were considered before I got into this position.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so we are thinking the same and using the same words, maybe the Minister can help me. Is there any difference between the word renovation and the word new? Is there a difference, just so I understand?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not think anyone can disagree that there is a difference in those two words. However, what we are talking about here is a functional program, and governments make changes and approaches to how projects are undertaken all the time. This government has done it many times over the four years that I have been on Cabinet and has not considered it a change in the scope of the program.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you. What Minister is responsible to consult on this change with the appropriate committee and MLAs?
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. According to the Financial Administration Manual, directive 302, the Minister responsible is the Minister for the department. In this case, because of the timing change, I expect that according to that directive, consultation was required with the standing committee. There is no question the consultation or advice to the committee could have happened more quickly than it did. I know that and have acknowledged that in a letter to the standing committee following my appearance there. Minister Kakfwi has apologized in this House for not having made the notification more quickly, as has the Premier. There is an agreement on Cabinet that we could have followed the Financial Administration Manual Directive more carefully and quickly. The decision was made on June 4 , and the committee was not notified until July 14. There is no question that notification should have happened sooner. I have to take some personal responsibility for that delay. I have apologized. This house has the apologies of three Ministers for the delay. It should have been done much quicker.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is also, I believe, a difference between the word notifying and the word consultation. I believe there is different meanings to those two things. Even in your own government you have a process of changing capital projects and I know that this government and this 13th Legislative Assembly has already put a motion of censure in the government for not following the proper process. According to your process no new capital projects over $250,000 are to be established until the responsible Minister, that would have been Mr. Kakfwi, has consulted in writing with the affected MLAs and appropriate standing committee. If the standing committee or MLAs do not support the proposed project, the responsible Minister, that is Mr. Kakfwi again, should advise the chairman, yourself, of FMB in writing if he/she intends to proceed with the project. The requirement for consultation will be waived if the new project is necessary due to an emergency. I never ever heard of this project being an emergency, in which case notice will be provided as described in "b" below when a department proposes to delete a capital project of significant concern to a community, the appropriate standing committee and affected MLAs will be advised. Those are the consultation guidelines. That is one part of them. There was never any consultation taking place with the standing committee that is responsible for this as well as MLAs, because it affects all MLAs, not just Yellowknife MLAs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to move a motion.