All those against the motion, please stand.

All those abstaining from the motion? The results of the motion are four in favour, eight against, no abstentions. The motion is defeated. We are under Justice capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,737,887. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions for the Minister of Finance on this particular change. In the research which has caused this money to be going back into the funding now so that they can do a capital project instead, I would like to know if anyone researched whether or not there is any precedent for a combination facility such as this anywhere in Canada, anywhere in the world for that matter? Thank you.

The Finance Minister, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to refer that to the Minister of Justice.

The Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is legislation that compels us to provide correctional facilities for adults and for young offenders. They are very clear and explicit, and there are facilities elsewhere in Canada that meet the requirements of the law in regard to the type of facilities that are provided and meet the requirement that the young offenders be treated and provide facilities and services separately from adults. It has been researched, and we have met with officials from other institutions that provide similar services and we are quite comfortable that it will be done in accordance to the requirements. Thank you.

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, does the Minister know of any other place in Canada where they have collocated adult and young offenders facilities? Thank you.

Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the question was directed to the Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, but to have order here, we will go through you, since it is your bill. Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are, as I said, other jurisdictions in Canada that provide facilities that have young offenders and adult offenders in the same general area. There is a requirement to make sure there is a separation so that there is no contact and minimal or zero visibility of each other. Yes, there are other facilities, sometimes in the very same building, of young offenders being brought into, for instance, the first floor with adults, women and men being on the second and third floor. They are fed from the same cooking facilities. They share the same gymnasium and recreational facilities sometimes, but they do not come within visual contact of each other. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Where?

Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will defer the answer to the Minister of Justice.

Minister is deferring the question to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can provide the Member with details of the other institutions in Canada that have young offenders and adult offenders in the same buildings and in the same general geographic area that share facilities. Thank you.

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I drive by the Yellowknife Correctional Centre on the way to work every day, and it presents a visual of something that looks very much like a jail. it has very high fences, I do not know how high, I would say probably 12 feet high chain-linked fence with double scrolls of barbed wire along the top of the fence. It looks very much like a prison. I have also seen young offenders facilities. You drive by them. Even secure custody young offenders facilities do not have the appearance or perception of a prison. These young offenders are children by definition. Under this new collocated plan that the government has come up with, will be taking children from the courthouse, I would assume, to a facility such as this with a locked gate, taking them into a facility like this. Has the department or the Minister considered the impact that this will have on children

who are sentenced under the Young Offenders Act? I think it would be anyone's understanding that certainly there must be a desire for rehabilitation and particularly with young people who are very impressionable. I would like to know if the department has considered the impact of taking children to such a facility? Thank you.

Minister of Finance.