This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

My interpretation of what you mean by separate. Separate to me means a separate building altogether. Apart means there has to be a distance between point A and point B. I believe that I supported these initiatives with the understanding that these will be two separate projects. There will be funding there for the renovation of the YCC correctional facility and there will be two buildings built in Inuvik and Yellowknife. One, to house the female young offenders and one to house the male offenders. Those were two separate projects.

You talk about the facility here in Yellowknife and where you want to put the male facility in YCC, but then you use the argument, well, if we do that, they are going to have a gymnasium and all these other things. What about the female facility in Inuvik? Do they also get a gymnasium or do they also get a bigger kitchen area? What is the difference between a male and female young offender? Are we treating one differently than the other?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The facilities were always planned to be located adjacent to one another. It comes down to a question of whether or not we can, with a building that is not physically separated, guarantee physical separation of certain inmates. I have no reason to believe that we could not. In terms of what is going to be included in the facilities in the Inuvik centre, I would have to refer that part to the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is our intent, and I want to assure Mr. Krutko, that we will build and provide these facilities in full accordance with the legislative requirements for young offenders and also for adult offenders. We will do that. We are not going to go by his definition of what separate means. We will go by what the legal definition is because that is what we are required to do, much the same way as we will go by the building code. Not his building code, but the official building code, and we will go by the official definitions contained in there.

The Cabinet made a decision. There was no consultation about where to put the young female offenders' facility but it was decided by Cabinet last year to put it in Inuvik. That is the decision. I revisited that and it is my view that the decision, because again with the time constraints, it would be cheaper to put it in Hay River. It would be cheaper to put it in Fort Smith. It would be even cheaper to put it in Yellowknife. There is no difficulty whatsoever to do that. The decision of Cabinet at that time, with no consultation as I recall, was to place it in Inuvik. In my view, that is where it is going to stay and we will see what we can do to make sure that they have access to gymnasiums, those sort of things. The decision clearly is to locate it in Inuvik. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko's time is up and I am going to call a 15 minute break before we proceed with any other speakers. Thank you.

-Break

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I call the committee

back to order. The Department of Justice, capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,730,887. Before we took the break, I had Mr. Morin. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just so I understand what happened here and we are of the same understanding as the Minister, this was going to be a renovation of the existing facility. It was going to be a new facility for young offenders. Then you went out for some preliminary costing, and the architectural firm said that it does not make sense to renovate Yellowknife Correctional Centre because it is going to cost so many million dollars, that it makes more sense to build a new one. No one ever said that to go back and renovate makes more sense than to build a new one. I would just let the Minister know that as well. It makes more sense and makes better economics to build a new facility and to combine the two. That is what the architectural firm said.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, the project as it was presented would have involved renovating the 4,000 square metres that presently exist and increasing it to 10,600 square metres of total space. It would have meant that substantially the project was new construction more than renovation. There was some renovation and enhancement. Perhaps there is not a clear understanding that part of the enhancement was a significant amount of new construction. I am talking just about YCC. The project as presented was, as I say, to renovate sections of the existing 4,000 square metres and add enough new space so we would wind up with 10,600 square metres in total.

With the level of planning that was done at the time and the estimate of $28.3 million was made, there was a sense that the project could be done for that amount. By May the department had come back and said that their consultant advised it would take over seven years to do what had been proposed for YCC and that it would now cost $35 million. FSC said that if you can shorten the time frame, forget about trying to renovate the 4,000 square metres, just get rid of it and build it all new, would probably cost only $30 million. They subsequently have said that rather than locating the young offenders facility on land adjacent to YCC, you could put them close enough together so they can share certain parts of the facilities, while still maintaining total separation, there are further savings of, I believe $6.4 million. They also identified some ongoing operations and maintenance savings from that collocation.

That, Madam Chairperson, outlines the process. We have gone from a situation where we were proposing to renovate the existing 4,000 square metres, add 6,600 square metres to YCC and a separate stand-alone facility to bring them together. The total savings are substantial if we can do it in the manner proposed. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

July 30th, 1999

Page 750

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It was the architectural firm that made this recommendation to the government to put them closer together, semi-attached or something, so that they can share the same facilities. The architectural firm said that it is cheaper than the original idea of renovation, enhancement and two separate facilities. It is the architectural firm that recommended back to the government to do this. Is this correct?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 750

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I believe that you need to keep the two initiatives separate. On YCC, I believe that the architects recommended that it looked like it would be cheaper to build new rather than trying to renovate the 40 percent first proposed. They said that instead of spending $35 million over seven years, a new facility built over a shorter time period would be estimated at $30 million. They also suggested further savings could be achieved by sharing the planned services, if that was possible, between the YCC and the young offenders facility.