This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. That ten minutes is up, Mr. Krutko. I have Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In the normal process, and I do not know if it has changed, maybe you will have to call on your Minister of Housing to help you with this, you look at the whole western Arctic, you have a pot of money in your Housing Corporation to meet housing needs in the community. If you renovate a public housing unit and bring it up to standard, you have met one housing need. If you allocate a housing program no matter which one it is, you meet a need. When you have your budgets, when we pass the budgets, we never can meet all the needs because there is not enough money, we all know that. Normally, I think we can meet about ten percent of the actual need, that is what you have. If a community needs ten units, they get one, for example. One housing need is met. Whether there is a whole variety of housing programs to meet different peoples needs. Ultimately, the allocation, the Housing Corporation has a very fair system of allocating units. It is driven by a needs study every three years. The only place that is treated differently that I understand is Yellowknife because of the private markets and all those things. All the other communities are treated the same, fairly.

When your staff housing selling policy says you offer it for sale to the person living in it, the government employee, if they choose not to buy it, then you put it out on the market. If the market does not purchase it then you turn it over to the Housing Corporation for public housing. That is a good policy as well. The problem is in this case you have Norman Wells and Fort Simpson, they are getting extra housing for public housing needs in that community without giving up some of that other stuff. Whatever the units are, say five, they are getting five extra housing needs met, more than any other community is. There is nothing wrong with the policy, nothing wrong with the way the Housing Corporation give out their units except for the two do not ever talk to each other to see if it is still fair, when you put the two they are seen separate. When in reality you are still meeting a public housing need. There is where the problem lies. Maybe things have changed, I do not know.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I understand it since 1992 there has been no allocation under public housing. There has never been a situation where an allocation of public housing would affect EDAP or IHP programs. Those are driven by applications from people who meet certain conditions and can support the ownership of the house after they are in it. It is my understanding that, in fact, there has not been that kind of shift since 1992 so I do not think this is a recent change, if there is a change. However I stand to be corrected by the Minister of Housing if I have misstated that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 732

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It does not matter what the program is. I know there has been no allocation of public housing units, perse new buildings. Everybody knows

that because there is no new money. You have negotiated with CMHC on a block funding arrangement over a certain many years and the federal government is out of public housing and I know there is no new money to build public housing, but there are all those other programs and they have capital money in the budget in the Housing Corporation. Now the way they are allocating their dollars is based on need. It is a fair, fair system. Any given community, for example, in Lutselk'e, they get a certain amount of needs met per year and it is fair, the same as Fort Good Hope would or anybody else. When you throw into the mix because certain staff housing did not sell in a given community, all of a sudden they are getting five extra needs met, because ultimately that is what you do when you turn it over, hand the operations and maintenance over to the Housing Corporation. That is five extra units in their stock. If they are carrying 50 public housing units all of a sudden they are carrying 55 public housing units, so they get five extra needs met. There should be an exit of five other programs out of that same community and reallocated to make it fair. That is my simple understanding of allocating housing whether it is public housing, EDAP or whatever program you have or the selling off of staff housing to the Housing Corporation. Maybe I do not have it right, maybe somebody can clarify that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, my understanding is that the Housing Corporation does not remove funding for EDAP or the Independent Housing Program in the case where houses are allocated to social housing through the Staff Housing Policy. Perhaps we should ask the Minister of Housing to provide some clarification on that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. At the present time the Housing Corporation does not remove other program funding or EDAP funding from communities based on transfer of social housing units. Each region has been allocated funding to run the programs they have, whether it is transfers to LHOs and so on, but the EDAP program as well. Then from there it is broken down roughly on a community basis as applications come in, but the districts have a fair bit of flexibility depending on where most applications are being generated from. Right now, as the program exists, there is no reduction in the EDAP program for any region based on the housing transfers. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you. Then those communities that do not sell off there staff housing, they get that extra little boost of housing into their public unit. I also know and maybe yourself or the Minister of Housing can clarify this, is that there was a fairly concise decision made to encourage home ownership and home ownership has been the biggest priority of the Housing Corporation. Before their portfolio used to be made up of the majority of building up public housing unit stock, building new public housing units. That switched to home ownership.

If these houses cannot be sold on the market and probably because of the appraisal value they are only allowed to sell for 10 percent less than that is the policy. When they are transferred to the Housing Corporation those would be good units to put back into the home ownership program where they could be reduced in price and renovated and then put out to the market for home ownership instead of carrying them on your public housing stock we have to carry them forever, for the next 35 years you have to carry them at that price that you have in the budget every year. Ultimately you would encourage home ownership and you would not need the operations and maintenance money that you are asking to transfer because they would not need it then. Because you would need only the capital money to renovate them to make them livable so home ownership clients can purchase them through the EDAP program or whatever.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Comments, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand what the Member is saying, but, I would come back to what I said earlier in response to Mr. Erasmus and that is that is it fair to tie the groups together? In the case of a 25 year old house, it is going to be difficult to find somebody who can afford to operate it. That would be my first thought. There is a need for social housing and if we have some units that we can turn over to it, we should. I know it may not seem fair that we cannot do it in every community, but if we have some available it would seem prudent to do that. In terms of the overall policy question, I would have to defer that to the Minister for the Housing Corporation.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 733

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The whole area as I stated earlier once again initially when this government started to sell staff housing units, there was much concern raised by Members in this Assembly as well as in the Social Programs Committee that we should be trying to use some of these units for staff housing units, so the policy was developed in that range. Just a little further on the EDAP program, as a Housing Corporation, we are feeling that we have come close to totally utilizing the portion of the population that could fall into that EDAP program. The Housing Corporation is already sort of looking at what is out there. We need to do that along with another survey that is being done this year. There are some ongoing things but it was through this government that the policy was set up and we have been following for a number of years now.

I think if there are concerns that this is not working properly that we need to address that and try to come up with some program that is fair, but at the same time when we have residents in whatever community that they might come out of that can afford the EDAP program and have their own home, we know as a government that it is better to have people in their own homes then in public housing units, so that is why the big push was on. As I stated earlier, where we have come to a position, or very close to it, that the people with higher incomes and social housing units have gone on to purchase their own homes, so we are coming to that stage where we have to relook at that program. That has not been undertaken as of yet, but we are considering what we have to do in the future. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I have Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. First of all, this page here does not really tell us too much. It talks about regions. It does not say a word about any communities, unless there is something on the back. The list that the Minister had read out indicated the exact communities in which units had been transferred. Perhaps he could read it out so we can write it down if he cannot give it out.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing I wanted to know. For these units, five units to Fort Simpson and four units to Norman Wells, are there additional operations and maintenance dollars transferred to operate those units, or does the housing authority have to use their current dollars to operate those units? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The department making the transfer, which is FMBS, provides the money that it normally would spend on maintenance and outgoing expenses of these facilities, and then it is topped up through this supplementary to ensure that they have adequate funds to provide them.

If I can go back to the Member's first question, I have asked that copies be made of the detail that I read out earlier in the House. I would note that what I have with me refers only to social housing, but if there is any other information Members require, I will endeavour to provide it.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

July 29th, 1999

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I think I will wait to get the other information before we ask for clarification. What the Minister is saying, then, is that in some lucky communities that have a bunch of overpriced staff housing that they cannot sell, communities with no housing market and no hope of reselling a house if you buy it an overinflated price, if you happen to be lucky enough to live in that community, you can increase your amount of units plus your budget through the back door periodically. Is that what I am hearing?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 734

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I guess I have more confidence in the licenced appraisers who say that we are in fact getting a true reflection of the value of the property, that if we offer it for ten percent below the appraised value, that is in fact a fair price. That does not mean that there will always be a buyer for a house in a community, even if it is being offered at below that fair price.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.