This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you. What Minister is responsible to consult on this change with the appropriate committee and MLAs?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. According to the Financial Administration Manual, directive 302, the Minister responsible is the Minister for the department. In this case, because of the timing change, I expect that according to that directive, consultation was required with the standing committee. There is no question the consultation or advice to the committee could have happened more quickly than it did. I know that and have acknowledged that in a letter to the standing committee following my appearance there. Minister Kakfwi has apologized in this House for not having made the notification more quickly, as has the Premier. There is an agreement on Cabinet that we could have followed the Financial Administration Manual Directive more carefully and quickly. The decision was made on June 4 , and the committee was not notified until July 14. There is no question that notification should have happened sooner. I have to take some personal responsibility for that delay. I have apologized. This house has the apologies of three Ministers for the delay. It should have been done much quicker.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is also, I believe, a difference between the word notifying and the word consultation. I believe there is different meanings to those two things. Even in your own government you have a process of changing capital projects and I know that this government and this 13th Legislative Assembly has already put a motion of censure in the government for not following the proper process. According to your process no new capital projects over $250,000 are to be established until the responsible Minister, that would have been Mr. Kakfwi, has consulted in writing with the affected MLAs and appropriate standing committee. If the standing committee or MLAs do not support the proposed project, the responsible Minister, that is Mr. Kakfwi again, should advise the chairman, yourself, of FMB in writing if he/she intends to proceed with the project. The requirement for consultation will be waived if the new project is necessary due to an emergency. I never ever heard of this project being an emergency, in which case notice will be provided as described in "b" below when a department proposes to delete a capital project of significant concern to a community, the appropriate standing committee and affected MLAs will be advised. Those are the consultation guidelines. That is one part of them. There was never any consultation taking place with the standing committee that is responsible for this as well as MLAs, because it affects all MLAs, not just Yellowknife MLAs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to move a motion.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

I move that this committee recommends that the Executive Council take immediate steps to terminate its planning and implementation process for the adjusted design and construction phases for the replacement of the Yellowknife Correctional Facility and the collocated Young Offenders Facility and further that the Executive Council initiate correctional facilities planning in consultation with the appropriate standing committee and Members of the Legislative Assembly.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Morin. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason I put this

motion on the floor is to help the government. The government has already said through the Premier, through the Minister responsible and through the Minister of Finance, that they did not follow the proper process to move the Yellowknife Correctional Centre renovation to a combined new facility. What this motion does and they have written to us and apologized and I thank them for that, but what this motion does, Mr. Chairman, it enables the government to do the proper consultation through the proper standing committees and MLAs and again come and move ahead so all the concerns that Members have raised about this facility should be addressed. It enables the government to follow their own guidelines, their own processes, that is all it does. This capital project is not an emergency, so all this motion does is it allows the government to follow a process that we all agreed on we would do. Once again, we are trying to help the government to follow the proper process. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have not been in this House nearly as long as the honourable Member posing this motion. I have, however, been here long enough to have heard him speak of capital projects that are not necessarily kept the same throughout the life of their conception and completion in this government. I disagree and would challenge his definition of what constitutes a new capital project. In our budget books we have a capital project for YCC. We are not changing the functional program by switching from renovation to new construction. Is the Member saying then that we should cancel the work on Tsiigehtchic School because we went from renovation to new construction? I do not think so. Over the years while meeting in this House, we have made this kind of change many, many times. There is no acceptance that we did not follow the proper process. What we apologized for was being slow at giving the committee notice. Contrary to what Mr. Morin alleges, because this is not a new capital project, this falls under section (b), 4.3(b), which says that the responsible Minister will advise the appropriate MLA and standing committees of changes made.

Therefore, it is not to be considered as far as this government is concerned, as a new project. There has been no change in the functional program. The project itself exists in the book. I listed three projects today where we made a switch from renovation to new construction, all based on information that was brought forward by consultants to demonstrate that we could save the public a considerable amount of money. It has been done in the past. Why would we not do it again in this situation? We should do it again in this situation.

I want to make it very clear that this government has apologized for not following the procedures as quickly as we should have. We should have advised the committee earlier. We are not saying that we did not follow the guidelines. Mr. Chairman, I have to say that I am really quite taken back by this motion and I do not support it. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Comments to the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I support this motion. I think that this decision that was made regardless of whether Mr. Dent wants to argue the technicality of the financial administration manual or not. The point of having standing committees is so that they can review the plans of various departments before decisions are made, not after the fact. I disagree with the Minister that there is such urgency attached to this project, that after certain money was voted in the budget, in the House, that the Cabinet could then take this back, substantively alter what the plans were and I hear that they are sorry that they did not consult the committee, but forget about the timing, this is a major project. This is the largest project that this government is going to undertake, that we have committed to undertake in the life of this Assembly and for a project of this size to be modified or changed in any way without following the protocol that we have set out for consultation with committees to see what kind of other information is out there to receive input from other MLAs is not acceptable.

I do not think this motion is saying that this project is not going to go ahead. I think what we are saying is we would like it returned to the drawing board, consult through the appropriate avenues and present those compelling and convincing arguments that are the basis of the decision to the committee and to the MLAs. I do not think that is an unreasonable request. This is a major shift and maybe the building will deliver the same type of program, but this is still a major shift and this is a lot of money. I do not think that this decision being made without consultation is defendable in any way. I will be supporting this motion.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I too, will be supporting this motion. Although my constituency includes the part of the city of Yellowknife and this project is one that is in Yellowknife, Mr. Chairman, there is no way that I can rationalize such a major shift as putting youth offenders together with adults in the same building. There is no way that I can rationalize that without public consultation to see what the general public of the Northwest Territories thinks about that. It is unprecedented, totally unprecedented.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Kakfwi, you have a point of order?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, just to make the point of order. The Member is making a statement that is not factual. There is no intent to put the young offenders and the adult offenders in the same building. The intent is to have them share some of the facilities. The point of order is that the Member's misleading, inadvertently perhaps, but it is still misleading, and it should be corrected.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

I do not believe that Mr. Kakfwi has a point of order. The replacement of the correctional facility and collocation of the young offenders facility are mentioned in the motion, so the Member does have the right to debate it in his comments. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

July 30th, 1999

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Because of this major shift in the way that these collocated facilities are to be, as I understand it, attached to each other, this is a total shift in what was originally proposed. This should have come to the social programs committee, and it did not. The Yellowknife MLAs should have been consulted as well, and we were not. This is

in the government's own policy. Presumably this government makes policies and rules and regulations for a purpose. It is so that things will be done fairly and with input from all of us. This was a major shift in the way things were done in the previous Assemblies. It was done for a purpose, so that the Ordinary Members who sit on the committees would have input and have an opportunity to have public consultation if they wish. This whole process has been circumvented in this situation. Not only that, but we are moving from $4 million a year to something like $15 million a year or whatever in expenditures because this process is going to be increased so quickly.

Getting an apology is nothing, a puff of smoke. The Finance Minister may be taken aback. We would prefer that he take the project back so that we can have the proper consultation done through the standing committee and with the general public to see if this is an acceptable way of dealing with our youth, so that we can see if the general public is ready to have them in such a facility as this. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Comments to the motion. Mr. Henry.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, sometimes I think, when sitting in this position over here, that some of us on this side of the House continually live in la-la land. In the last session we have voted for an additional $5 million for education. We want more money put into health care. Yet we spend money like it is going out of style. We went on a travelling road show with Bill 15, and here we have an opportunity to save money by the government taking an action and re-evaluating somewhere where they can save $4 million, yet we want to stop a project because the government takes a good initiative. Certainly not from my perspective. I have heard three apologies from the government, and I am certainly willing to accept that. I would like to see it happen more often that if there is a mistake made, people are big enough to apologize. I do not see it as major circumstances for this government to take the action that they did, and I certainly will not be supporting this motion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Ootes.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think there are various viewpoints on this issue, and while there may be certainly some truth to the fact that Cabinet had a responsibility to inform the Members and to inform the committee, I think if I look at this historically, these projects were approved last year. The youth facility was approved by Cabinet last year. We approved in the budget the renovation costs of $4 million. To me it is just good governance to have Cabinet be conscientious about what they are doing, and if it looks like there is an ability to do it better, then sometimes you have to take that step. In my opinion there is a certain amount to be gained by the process that Cabinet is following here. We are told that the option is there to save $5 million if the project is speeded up to four years over seven years. They could have taken the other avenue of saying, we really do need a new facility, but we will take seven years. The money does not change then. Nothing changes, other than the name. The name becomes new versus renovation.

With respect to the project itself, there should not be an argument. There is an argument as to the process that was used, but Cabinet repeatedly have issued a note to us, they have apologized, and I think in the interests of the project, we should proceed. I am not sure what it will accomplish if we go back to the drawing board on this and do all sorts of consultations, et cetera. I am of the opinion that the youth facility, as I say, was approved last year. I think there is rationale for putting it where it is, and I will go with that. I will be voting against this motion.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

To the motion. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was a decision made to locate a young offenders facility in Yellowknife, a stand-alone facility. There was a decision made to fix up the old correctional facility in Yellowknife. That decision was driven and sold in this House by a fire marshal's ruling or whatever. That is basically what drove the decision of us spending the money in fixing up that facility. Once that was changed to a new project, it changed everything because now it should be looked at seriously. Is that the right place for it? I do not know. Is it proper to have young offenders attached to adult offenders in the same facility? What am I supposed to do? Trust Kakfwi's word because he went on a little tour down south and looked at a few facilities? I do not think so.

We have a lot of people in the Northwest Territories who would be able to give us some good advice on that. We have a lot of people that work with people in the correctional centres, who work on programs. Maybe there are other ways of doing things. Maybe there are ways of doing it so you have better results in the end. You not only end up with new facilities housing people properly, but maybe there is a way of doing it in such a way that once they are there, they do not come back if you have something different. I do not know. None of us has been given that opportunity to look into that because the process was not followed. Once you are going to build a new facility, then that is what it is, a new facility. It is no longer a renovation. No matter how much you want to slip and slide around this one, Mr. Dent, you are dead wrong. This is new. It is new. It is as simple as that.

What is this motion saying? This motion is saying to consult with the standing committee. What does it hurt? What ramifications has it for the government to go back and consult with the committee? Maybe the decision will be the same. I do not know, but at least you have consulted and have given other people an opportunity to make comments on this. The first time the public in the Northwest Territories heard about this combination of this facility is just recently, since this House opened its doors this week. That was the first time. You have even given the people of Toronto more notice than you have given the people in the Northwest Territories. That is true, because I have looked in the northern newspapers, and I never saw anything. When you look in the Globe and Mail, we made our intention quite clear down there. Is this what this government has come to? You do not have the ability to consult anymore? That is not asking too much. That is being realistic, and that is being reasonable. Have you the answers for everything now? You do not need to consult anymore? Are you the supreme people in the North now? Only your decisions are the right ones and you cannot consult or ask for second opinions? That is what it is starting to sound like to me.

The Justice Minister had an opportunity to consult with people. The Justice Minister of the day had an opportunity. Once the scope of work had changed, he had that opportunity. He chose not to consult with people. He chose not to consult with the Members of the Legislative Assembly. He chose not to consult with the proper standing committee because he went south and saw a couple of facilities, and he is the expert now. I urge Members to vote in favour of this motion so that we can take a second look at this facility before you commit millions and millions of dollars into building a brand new correctional centre for Yellowknife and also to put adults and youth together. It will be interesting what people have to say that work with youth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.