Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I could be wrong, but in the past, I have been advised that the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development is responsible for monitoring the BIP policies.
Debates of July 6th, 2000
This is page numbers 533 - 596 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.
Topics
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am referring to his department. Ensuring that people within the department allow for certain provisions through the Manufacturers Directive or the Business Incentive Policy, in regard to local hires, or different percentages that are given on different contracts.
So I am just asking him from his department's view, how do they, as a department, ensure that their people in the field are carrying out the directives in these policies?
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557

Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the department, as I said, every official that is involved in implementing the BIP or the Manufacturers' Directive in the contracts and whether the contractors are familiar or abiding by the contract, is up to the management staff.
However, just for clarification purposes, I could ask the deputy minister to briefly explain exactly how he ensures that the staff follow the process. Thank you.
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Rattray
Mr. Chairman, we do review the design work and specifications that consultants prepare for us. We look for opportunities to make use of northern manufactured products and we work with our consultants to take advantage of those opportunities.
So at the first level, in the first instance, our consultants are aware that they need to include northern manufactured goods where it is appropriate. In the second instance, our project management staff and our technical review staff are aware, as well, that they need to review the design documents to ensure that those provisions are made.
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. There was a situation with the Fort McPherson water treatment upgrade. There was a tender, I believe, to build two large tanks at the water treatment facility. The only bidder was NTCL, which has been in the North for a number of years. After receiving word that they got the contract, they were told, well sorry, your bid does not count because you are not covered under BIP.
This company has been here for 110 years and I think that everybody knows who NTCL is. It is owned by the Inuvialuit, people from Nunasi Corporation. So I would like to ask the Minister, what is the process to ensure that we allow companies such as NTCL, for these bids to be allowed on the basis of basic understanding?
This company is a northern company. They are based in Hay River. Everybody knows that. They are an aboriginal-owned company, 100 percent, but yet, these types of decisions are made. So I would like to ask the Minister exactly what happens in that case and what is there to remedy the situation?
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557

Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I find this question similar to the situation that was put to me as the Minister responsible for Transportation yesterday and how the department responds to certain situations, where contractors have put forward bids and they were not qualified.
So, as I said yesterday, I leave it to the department to handle the situation, because it is not really a political situation at this point. It is simply a matter of following policies and, as I said yesterday, I do not bend policies to suit the occasion. The policies are there, we follow them. If we bend them, we will be questioned as to why we bent them. So we do not bend them. It does not really matter if the company has been here 100 years, the policy is there. So that is what we do. We follow the policies. Thank you.
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 557

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a concern about that because this, as far as I am concerned, is an emergency situation in Fort McPherson and another reason to hold up the project. For myself, knowing that the subcontractor for this particular contract is Dowland, which is an Inuvik-based company in the region, who is going to be doing the majority of the work installing these tanks in the treatment facility.
So it kind of boggles my mind that you are scared to bend the rules, but you are there, as a Minister, to ensure that your department moves as smoothly as it can that it does not continue to stall projects because they either did not like the wording in the agreement or somebody forgot to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's. How detailed do you have to get as a department before you give some leverage, knowing that there is short season to get these tanks, which have to be barged in from Hay River, and then be installed.
It is July and we are talking about a barging season that concludes in September. So you have two and a half months to try to go back out for another tendering process.
That is my concern. As a Member, this project directly affects me. We have to, as a government, the Premier and Cabinet, make it clear in this House that this is a priority of this government, and yet another stumbling block that has been put in the way of this project.
So, as the Minister, I would like to ask again, why is it that you could not take into consideration, knowing as a personal matter that NTCL is a northern aboriginal corporation, that the subcontractor is northern BIP type, in regards to Dowland out of Inuvik, as a regional operation? Myself, as a Member, I caught wind of this through a telephone call I got from NTCL. There was no consultation whatsoever with myself.
So I would like to ask the Minister again, as the Minister, you are responsible to ensure that the activities within this government are being carried out in a timely manner, that we do not continue to put roadblocks up by disallowing contracts on the basis that someone forgot a particular aspect. For some reason or another, they did not fill in the application for BIP. Will the Minister tell me when does he have the ability to move on specific things or are his hands tied so that he cannot do anything?
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I believe that we are on general comments here. We have not reached activities where this particular situation would arise. I am prepared to respond to it at this point in time but it is getting quite specific to an activity and a project within the activity. However, in an effort to keep moving things along here, I can respond here.
I just repeat myself. We follow the policies set by the government in regards to BIP and the Manufacturers' Directive. It is clear that there is a requirement for the company to meet certain terms in the bid. I do not believe that we are slowing down the project. As a matter of fact, we were quite safe in that the time requirements were still there to meet the deadlines. The project will still go ahead on time when the bids do come in.
As a matter of fact, on this particular project, I believe that the bids closed July 4th. There is still time for the contractor to fulfill the work of the contract. We are not trying to slow the project down, but we are making an effort to abide by the policies set in BIP and in the Manufacturers' Directive. All I can say, Mr. Chairman, is that if I get direction from Cabinet or from the Legislative Assembly to disregard the policies, then that is what we will do. But until we get that, we are going to abide by the policy. Thank you.
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find it hard to believe that this was the only bid that did come in. So technically, that was the only group that showed an interest in taking a hold of this project. I find it hard to believe that this government has now extended a contract that was already subsequently closed, in which there was only one bidder. What you are doing is setting up a total monopoly or jeopardizing a corporation's ability to build a trusting relationship with this government, knowing that every time they put a bid in, and if you are the only bidder, if somebody said, "Well, I do not have enough time to put a bid in," it will allow another bidder an opportunity to know what the price is, go back, put another bid a week later -- which does not lead much to building trust between ourselves and contractors who took the time and the risk to put the proposal in, knowing that was the price that they put in the bid.
If you are going to continue to open up these bids and say, "Sorry we opened up your bid. You are the only bidder." It is a public process where people can know what is in these bids when they are opened, and go out the door and put another bid in the following week. They know that this government will automatically re-apply this process of bidding until finally the group that suits the department is the one that gets the bid that meets what they want.
I do not think it is fair to contractors, especially northern contractors and northern-based companies, to have to go through this process of having to continue to have their bids rejected on the basis that they were the only one. I find it kind of hard to believe that this was the only company that bid on this project. Is it the only bid that went into the department? Now they are being told, "Sorry, we cannot accept it so we are going to put it out to bid for another week." I would like to ask the Minister, is that the practice of this government?
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 558
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 558

Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I tried to avoid discussing this particular issue in detail as we are going through the budget here, but the Member has brought up so much of the issue already it is almost a requirement now that we try to clarify our position on this. I am going to have to ask the deputy minister to clarify what happened with this situation and where it sits right now. As I said before, we are simply following policies, Mr. Chairman.
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Rattray
Mr. Chairman, this was an unfortunate tender call. There were two things that went awry in it. The first one was that when NTCL bid on the project they were not a designated northern manufacturer. At the time the tender closed, they did not have approval as a northern manufacturer of steel tanks. Otherwise, they were a legitimate northern contractor under BIP. It is the responsibility of the company to become registered as a northern manufacturer of tanks in order to qualify for this particular tender call. Unfortunately, it did not happen at the time of the tender call and that was the reason for rejecting the tender. The other thing that went wrong on this particular tender call was that there was another bidder and the other bidder did not get their bid in on time. The decision then was how to deal with that.
We determined that it would be faster for us to retender the project, and get a contractor in place that way. That is the approach we took on it.
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would hate to be in the contracting industry knowing that if you get your bid in on time, and if somebody else is late, your bid does not count. It makes it awfully hard to run a business. I think a good example is that yesterday, in regard to another issue, a bid price had been published. The department chose to go back on the tender. It was already published in regard to knowing what the bid was, so you go back out to public tender. There is definitely something wrong with the process of allowing a fair and equitable process.
There are timeframes that people have to meet. There are bids out there that set exactly the time and hour that these bids are going to close. If you miss the boat, you miss the boat. I think that as a government we either stick to the criteria that we put out in the public tender documents saying that there is a deadline, this is what it is.
The thing that gets me is that is exactly why we cannot attract industry to the North. That is why a lot of businesses will not bid on government contracts, because they have been burned so many times that they do not trust the system that is in place for public tenders. Like you say, you have to be fair. There is a point of being fair but there is a point of being clear on how you put out these bids and how people understand the bid documents that are out there. There is a specific time that is listed on all tender documents. If you do not meet that requirement within that timeframe, someone must have a heck of a lot of influence where they can come in the next day and say, "Hey, I did not get my bid in so I missed the boat. I want you to put it back out to public tender," so you do. I do not know who is dealing with what here, but that to me, should send shock waves out there to the business community that this is how this government is operating. I feel that this government has to take more accountability for the tender documents that they do post, that they follow the timeframe, and that we allow contractors, people from the industry making tanks, to have the same opportunity to build these tanks in the North. They did not.
The point that I am trying to make is that this is an essential element of concluding the water treatment facility in Fort McPherson. They have to get these tanks built in the treatment centre this year in order to access water that is going to be delivered to it, hopefully by next spring. If this is the process that we are going to go through, there is definitely a lack of communication. I think, as a government, we definitely have to establish a clearer role, in these tender documents that we do put out, that we do stick to the timeframes and deadlines that are in place. We do not allow for them to be continued open. We have seen it in the Department of Transportation, now we are seeing it again here in Public Works and Services. I would like to ask the Minister, when will you ensure that the department follows the direction on the timeframes set out in these tender documents?
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 559
Records Management
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Member pointed out some very important facts, in particular, in regard to contractors' bids being put in on time and the department's position on whether they be considered or not. In the Member's own words, on whether or not they missed the boat. In this situation everybody missed the boat, including NTCL. They did not have registration in time when the bids closed. They were not registered as a manufacturer. They made an effort to, but it was not in time. The other person that did not put their bid in time we treated the same way. It was not accepted. What we did was we put invitational tenders to three companies that could respond. We closed the bids for July 4th. This would allow for the project to still go forward in time.
It is unfortunate that NTCL's bid was opened, but that is part of the game. They get opened the minute we open the bids. They are posted. They are public knowledge. I think what the Member did here, he very clearly identified the problem the department faces in trying to be fair with everybody. That is why we try to stay within the policy because that is the only backup we have on whether we are treating contractors fairly. We must abide as closely by the policy as possible, within reason. So far we have not had to go outside of reason. All I can offer as a response to the Member and the committee, Mr. Chairman, is that the department is making its best efforts to abide by the rules and keep projects on time. That is what we are trying to do, Thank you.