- 1 As indicated earlier in this report, a telephone conversation occurred on March 26, 2001, between John Bayly and the Conflict of Interest Commissioner. There are a number of facts, which are important to bear in mind, leading up to this event.
- 2 In particular, Mr. Speaker, on March 26, 2001, late in the afternoon, the Minister learned of a CBC Radio report which not only reported a breach of the conflict of interest obligations of the Minister, but which contained a voice clip of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner apparently commenting on the situation.
- 3 As a result of learning this, the Minister became very distressed and approached Mr. Bayly, principal secretary, for his advice. Mr. Bayly had some previous acquaintance with these issues, having in the week previous spoken to the Minister as to whether or not she should participate in the requested interview with Mr. Selleck of CBC, having discussed the interview with the Minister after it occurred (at which time the Minister learned of the infractions alleged by Selleck) and having contacted the Conflict of Interest Commissioner on or about March 23, 2001, on the matter generally. Mr. Bayly was therefore alive to the controversy which was now well underway concerning an alleged infraction by the Minister.
- 4 Upon learning of the contents of the 4:30 p.m. CBC Radio news broadcast, a hasty meeting was assembled, which included Mr. Bayly; Lynda Sorensen, chief of staff; Sheila Bassi, executive assistant to Minister Groenewegen; and April Taylor, director of communications. The 5:30 p.m. news broadcast was monitored and the parties discussed how the Minister should respond to this situation.
- 5 Mr. Bayly indicated in his evidence that he felt it was important to learn the context of Ms. Roberts' comments to the media which formed part of this news report. He also wanted to know whether an official complaint had been received by her as this was not clear from the broadcast as aired. Finally, he wanted to follow up on a question posed to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner during his conversation with her the previous week, namely whether the Minister was at liberty to publicly disclose the provisions of her blind trust agreement, as public knowledge of these provisions could assist the Minister in addressing this controversy.
- 6 The Minister in her evidence indicated that her agenda or objectives at this point in time were somewhat different than those indicated by Mr. Bayly. She stated that Mr. Bayly had advised her that in his prior conversations with the Conflict of Interest Commissioner the week before, Ms. Roberts had indicated to him her knowledge of the alleged infractions by the Minister. The Minister believed that Ms. Roberts' prior knowledge was a serious matter and indicated that any statements made to the media thereafter must necessarily be interpreted as referencing the Minister.
- 7 The Minister wanted to determine whether Ms. Roberts would repeat her prior statements to Mr. Bayly, confirming that she did indeed have this information in hand at an earlier stage. This evidence of the Minister was not clearly corroborated by Mr. Bayly.
- 8 It was known to those gathered as a result of listening to the radio news, that the CBC Northbeat television program to be aired at 6:30 p.m. on that day was going to deal with the Minister being in conflict in more detail. They seemed to be of the view that there was therefore only a small window of time to assess the various options and circumstances.
- 9 Mr. Bayly concluded that as the information he was seeking from the Conflict of Interest Commissioner would be important in deciding on a response to the situation, he would place a call to her to canvass these issues.
- 10 No one present appeared to clearly articulate his or her respective objectives in contacting the Conflict of Interest Commissioner by telephone, Mr. Speaker.
- 11 There were some serious conflicts in the evidence of different witnesses concerning the circumstances of the telephone call and the taping of it. The various versions provided in testimony before the committee may be summarized as follows:
- a) John Bayly:
- • It was his idea to contact the Conflict of Interest Commissioner by telephone to pursue the three questions he thought were important;
- • The call was made from the Premier's office (the Premier being absent at the time) and the parties intended to use the video machine in his office to view and tape the 6:30 Northbeat program;
- • He had a pen and paper with him to make notes of the conversation with Ms. Roberts;
- • He cannot recall specifically who was in the room at the time the telephone call was made but it would have been some or all of Jane Groenewegen, Sheila Bassi, April Taylor and Lynda Sorensen;
- • He was at the Premier's desk although he cannot recall what side of the desk he was sitting at (i.e. facing the door or facing the window);
- • He placed the call using the hands free or speakerphone function of the telephone. He did not apprise Ms. Roberts at any point during the conversation that other persons were in the room;
- • At some point well into the telephone conversation he noticed that Minister Groenewegen was tape recording the conversation. He did not apprise the Conflict of Interest Commissioner of this fact when he learned it;
- • He indicated to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner that he was using the speakerphone function in the event that he needed to make notes;
- • He acknowledged the Minister making a hand gesture to him to keep the conversation going;
- • At the end of the telephone conversation there was no discussion among those present as to what, if anything, would be done with the tape of the conversation, nor was taping the conversation discussed in advance of the call being made.
- b) Jane Groenewegen:
- • Mr. Bayly was going to call the Conflict of Interest Commissioner to both determine whether the Minister could make public the provisions of her blind trust arrangement and to follow up on his prior conversation with her in which she indicated that she was aware of the directorship issue;
- • She went to her office to get her handheld tape recorder as she intended from the outset to tape the conversation, although she did not specifically state this intention;
- • Mr. Bayly dialed the Conflict of Interest Commissioner and the Minister set the tape recorder down on the desk beside the phone;
- • Although she was not paying particular attention to who was in the room as she was focused on the phone conversation, she believes Sheila Bassi, April Taylor and Lynda Sorensen were in the room during the call;
- • She was standing beside Mr. Bayly during the course of the call and at one point, she made a hand gesture to him to keep the conversation with the Conflict of Interest Commissioner going in order to try and obtain the information from the Conflict of Interest Commissioner that she was seeking.
- c) April Taylor:
- • She felt that the telephone call was placed from Mr. Bayly's office and not the Premier's office. However, she indicated in response to questions, that due to the fact that the configuration of the two offices are identical, it is possible that the call was made from the Premier's office. She reported that part of her recollection that the call was placed from Mr. Bayly's office was on the basis of his being comfortably seated at the desk with his back to the window;
- • She noticed the Minister leave the room, presumably to retrieve her tape recorder from her office;
- • The call was placed by Mr. Bayly using the speakerphone function. She assumed that he would indicate to Ms. Roberts who was in the room and when he did not do so, she became very uncomfortable with the situation;
- • She distinctly recalls who was present and where they were seated or standing, partly because of her acute discomfort with the circumstances of the call. She recalls John Bayly sitting at the desk in the chair facing the door, Lynda Sorensen standing next to him at his left shoulder, the Minister being seated at the desk around the end of it, her (Ms. Taylor) being seated directly opposite to Mr. Bayly and Ms. Bassi being seated to her right;
- • She was of the view that the tape recorder would have been clearly visible to all those present in the room;
- • She felt that it was not her place to raise her concerns about the circumstances of the call or her discomfort with her superiors, particularly the principal secretary, the Deputy Premier or the chief of staff.
- d) Lynda Sorensen:
- • She recalls the hasty assembling of John Bayly, Jane Groenewegen, Sheila Bassi and April Taylor as a result of the Minister's concerns regarding the CBC Radio news broadcast;
- • She recalls that a telephone call was made to Carol Roberts but she cannot recall seeing a tape recorder;
- • She was in and out of the room in which the call was occurring as she was expecting a call from the Premier and she was listening for another phone to ring;
- • Mr. Bayly was sitting in the chair at the Premier's desk with his back to the door as it is never Mr. Bayly's practice to sit in the Premier's chair;
- • She was not aware that those present in the room were not introduced to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, and she did not know that the Conflict of Interest Commissioner was not made aware of their presence. In fact she assumed that this had been done. She did not introduce herself as being in the room at any point.
- 12 Mr. Speaker, it is always difficult to reconcile different versions of the same event, and the committee is aware that memory can be fallible and inaccurate.
- 13 On the basis of the evidence of all these various witnesses, the committee concludes that the tape recording of this conversation was not a premeditated occurrence. However, the fact that it did occur was easily known to those present.
- 14 It is possible that Mr. Bayly did not recognize that the call was being tape recorded until some point part way through the conversation. From the outset though, Mr. Bayly was in charge of the telephone call and he took no steps to apprise Ms. Roberts that others were listening in on the call. In fact at one point during the conversation, the following occurred:
Ms. Roberts: I said I have no knowledge of that. But I don't -- I said it's not up to me to investigate whether...Hello, are you still there?
Mr. Bayly: Yeah, I'm still here.