This is page numbers 1501 - 1541 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the message we are getting here is that we should encourage young people in the Territories to pursue trades. They would be much better paid.

We are not able to get the hours limitation right now, but I have heard from lawyers that there is a real concern among the legal fraternity that people who are perhaps facing a decade in jail are not getting very much in terms of compensated hours by lawyers for representation. I understand lawyers are in effect subsidizing the legal system by providing a lot of service free of charge because they cannot bill.

However, it really does call into question the protection to the individual in terms of whether or not they can get adequate representation to appear in court. I think we are getting into a dangerous situation here.

I recognize the Minister has said this is supposed to be a shared area between the feds and the GNWT in terms of expenses, but we are going to have to get much more aggressive with the feds or we are going to have to be prepared to cough up. Otherwise, we are in significant danger of having a number of people incarcerated who maybe should not be because they have not been able to get adequate representation.

Justice delayed is justice denied. I think that is true, but somebody who does not get adequate representation is also being denied justice. Whether that is because of a lack of time for somebody in a small community to meet with a lawyer so that the whole story is available, or because of a lack of adequate facilities for translation. In any case, whatever the cause, I think it is unacceptable and people are going to jail when they might not otherwise do so.

As you know, a number of us think this is a serious area, Mr. Minister, and would encourage you to get on with the study. You are going to have to find more money, and that either means get to work on the feds or else we are going to have to cough up ourselves. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Justice, Mr. Antoine.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you for the comments. We are all concerned about this particular program that is very much needed here in the North by a lot of citizens who cannot afford it on their own. The board is very concerned as well. I have requested that the board do a budgeting exercise that is realistic. They are preparing a reasonable budget for future years.

We all recognize that the services provided to the public of the Northwest Territories are very critical, and we must keep pace with the different federal legislation that is in place now. We have the gun legislation, there are different criminal codes, there is the proposed Youth Criminal Justice Act, and there are a number of things we are facing here legally, and we need to keep pace with it.

I know the hourly rates for the younger lawyers are very low. I think the board also sees that as well. There are a number of very critical things that we have to do at the same time. I think it is very necessary to do a review to make sure we do not start picking it off here and there. If we do a comprehensive review, we can look at all these things that are out there that are of concern to everybody.

In the meantime, the board is doing a realistic budget and we will see probably, if the feds do not cough up additional dollars, that we will have to seek it from within our system shortly. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Public legal services. Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of final questions, but first I would like to briefly speak once again to the issue of the services. We have talked about backlogs and we have talked about the impact on lawyers, but I would like to make the case for communities outside of Yellowknife, especially those who do not have lawyers. There is fly-in justice where the court party comes in. Many times, it is very quick. It is a sort of assembly-line justice. That is a complaint I have heard over and over again. There is physically no time and people are whipped through the justice system with, in some cases, unseeming haste, as my colleague Mr. Dent pointed out.

The Minister has made reference to the need for a comprehensive review. That is something I think everybody would agree we need to look at. I would like to ask him when he anticipates he would start this review, how quickly can he get a good one done, and will there be an opportunity to have input? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister responsible for Justice, Mr. Antoine.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we would like to undertake this review as soon as we can get it going. As I indicated earlier to the honourable Mr. Nitah's questioning, we would like to aim for some time in the fall for having something from the review done. We would like to seek all kinds of different input from everybody, especially from the Members of this Legislative Assembly, and other interested bodies and different groups out there that have an interest in this field. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Public legal services. Ms. Lee.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have two short questions. One is that the Minister mentioned earlier that he is planning on meeting with the board and the NWT Law Society. I would like clarification as to which one he is meeting with, or both of them. I think the law society would be a good place for advice. As well, I wonder if the Minister would meet with the local chapter of the Canadian Bar Association who, I believe, have been advocating and speaking on and have a position on the lack of legal aid funding in the North. May I ask for his commitment to talk to them as well, Mr. Chairman?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, there is a meeting this weekend with the Legal Services Board and a meeting with the members of the law society, I believe, this weekend. It is a meeting between the two groups. I will not be there, but certainly I am prepared to meet with the Canadian Bar Association any time. I will seek a meeting with them as soon as we can. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, one last question. The Minister said earlier that our system is better funded than most in the south, but I do believe there are cases where, especially in criminal law cases, an accused has a possible defence of lack of funding and lack of due process as a result of lack of legal counsel, that may affect his defence. Are the officials aware of any precedent cases that may show what the obligations and liability of this government are in terms of its responsibility to provide legal services? Are we anywhere near that with the level of funding that we are providing? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The deputy minister, Mr. Sutton.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sutton

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are quite aware that an accused in cases that are likely to involve incarceration, have to be represented. If legal aid funding was not available, it is at the discretion of the court to order counsel to be appointed at a cost to government. I am not aware of any situations in the Northwest Territories where that kind of defence might be raised. I think people in the area of criminal law are generally represented, so I am not aware of any situation where that kind of defence might be raised in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Public legal services. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Budget summary, operations expense, total operations expense, $3,344,000. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1528

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Public legal services, grants and contributions, contributions, total contributions, $300,000.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 4th, 2001

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total grants and contributions, $300,000.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Registries and court services, budget summary, operations expense, total operations expense, $8,605,000. Ms. Lee.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for the announcement he made about the fact that PPSA is going to go into effect very soon here. Can the Minister confirm again when that service will be in place? Thank you.